Committee on Consumer and Worker Protection

Hello. Good morning. Welcome to today's New York City Council hearing for the Committee on Consumer and Worker Protection. At this time, please silence all phones. If you wish to speak in today's hearing, please fill out an appearance card with one of the sergeants. Moving forward, no one is to approach the dais. Chair, you may begin.

Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining the Consumer Worker Protection Hearing. My name is Harvey Epstein. I'm the chair of the committee. I'd like to recognize Councilmember Brewer and Councilmember Schulman, who is with me today. We're calling this the Councilmember Brewer hearing today.

Pedicabs are for-hire vehicles that combine a bicycle seat, handbars, and pedals for the driver with carriages for passengers. Pedicabs operate generally, offer short-distance rides to tourists in Midtown and Councilmember Brewer, let's not forget about that, of Manhattan, particularly around Times Square as well as Central Park. Pedicabs are the most heavily regulated industry by DCWP, but these regulations mean very little when the vast majority of pedicabs operating in New York City are unlicensed, unregistered.

Despite the cap of 850 pedicab registered plates, there are an estimated between 1,200 and 1,500 pedicabs operating in the city. Analysis on open data indicates there's just 275 valid pedicab registration plates, meaning that individuals who are choosing to operate unregistered pedicabs even though they are available for pedicab plates. Enforcement of pedicab regulations fall to DCWP, NYPD, and Parks, but the vast majority of enforcement is through criminal summons by NYPD.

There are major concerns on how effective criminal enforcement is. The analysis of 1,200 criminal pedicab summons from 2025 found that 35%— 35% of the tickets were deemed legally insufficient, 25% were dismissed in the interest of justice. 20% were not pursued for other reasons. 9% were never prosecuted, and just 9% resulted in some kind of criminal or civil punishment.

This status quo is not working for anyone. It's not working for tourists who are routinely ripped off by unscrupulous pedicab drivers charged anywhere from $500 to $1,200 for a ride under 20 minutes. It's not working for the Broadway productions that are interrupted by loud noise blaring from pedicabs outside their theaters. that is not working for licensed pedicabs who compete with unlicensed operators who do not invest in the city's safety equipment, insurance, or follow the rules.

Recognizing the system is not working, in November 2025, the Midtown Community Justice Center, which adjudicates criminal summonses for pedicab violations, organized a roundtable discussion with representatives from various stakeholders involved with the— affected by the pedicab industry, including NYPD, DCWP, Central Park Conservancy, Manhattan DA's Office, DOT, Times Square Alliance, and Broadway League. On May 26th, the Justice Center published the report with goals of policy recommendations generated from stakeholders on the roundtable.

A lot of those bills are being heard today. Intro 64 by Councilmember Maloney related to restrictions on the operation of pedicabs in the Theater District. Intro 77 by Councilmember Brewer related to the visibility of rider timing in the pedicabs. Intro 673 by Councilmember Juan related to the pedicab fares. 992 by Councilmember Brew related to making certain changes to the pedicab law. 993 by Councilmember Brew related to establishing the Taxi and Limousine Commission authority over pedicabs.

Intro 1026 by Councilmember Brew related to creating design curb space for pedicabs, and 1063 by Councilmember Wilson related to pedicabs with electric assist. I really look forward to a robust conversation about updating the pedicab laws, increasing compliance with pedicab regulations, and effective enforcement of pedicab businesses and drivers. And now I invite the bill sponsors to make a statement, and obviously I'm going to start with Councilmember Brewer.

Thank you very much, Chair Epstein. I am the only councilmember who takes pedicabs, and I take them at 72nd Street and Central Park West because I'm always late to get to the— whatever speaking event is in the park. But when I get there, they say, oh, it's Gail, don't overcharge her. So I do like that group of people, and I thank you for all the work that you do, but we do need regulation.

So thank you, Chair Epstein, for including the bills on today's agenda. I think we heard that for too long the city's approach to the pedicab industry has been inconsistent and ineffective, creating problems for public safety, consumers, and drivers while burdening enforcement. We've got to start over because nothing in this industry right now is working, and New Yorkers and visitors and drivers all deserve better.

So last year, as you heard earlier, Judge Wang and his amazing staff at the Midtown Community Justice Center initiated a pedicab task force, including the New York Pedicab Alliance, the Central Park Conservancy, the Times Square Alliance, DA, NYPD, and many others, including our office. And they produced Fixing the Pedicab Problem. That particular judge is awesome, and he's always trying to find ways to change policy as opposed to just doing what he does in the court.

So we took a hard look at what's not working. And this report has clear and practical solutions. We meet every single week still to talk about pedicabs. Fixing the Pedicab Problem: A Roadmap to Reform has been helpful. The report found, as you heard earlier, the city has approximately 850 authorized pedicab plates, but an estimated, I don't know, 1,200 or 1,500 are operating by 2024, and probably more now.

They often have bogus credentials. In 2025, there were 172 pedicab complaints to 311. Half, 86, involved overcharging, and another 35 involved unlicensed operators. And there were pretty— probably more because often tourists don't complain. We have heard that tourists have been charged $500 to nearly $1,000 for rides that are only 20 minutes. So we need clearer rules. Passengers need to know what they are being charged and who is responsible for the pedicab they are riding in.

There are many legitimate drivers and businesses. They should not have to compete with unlicensed operators and their predatory behavior. So we have bills— I have bills on meters, as you heard earlier, moving the oversight from Department of Consumer and Worker Protection to the Taxi and Limousine Commission. Third-party— these individuals, these apps, to carry liability insurance and be able to use taxi relief stands if possible.

So those are just some of the bills, and there are other ones being discussed today. We're not trying to eliminate pedicabs because they are a form of transportation just like many others. They're a part of New York City, particularly around Central Park, Times Square, Midtown, and the Theater District. And the chair said he just saw one in his district on the Lower East Side.

We want legitimate drivers and businesses to operate safely and fairly. We want passengers to know what they are paying. Right now you have no idea. You just have to argue. And the city has to be able to enforce the rules. I definitely want to thank Judge John Wang, Danielle Mendez, who's the Midtown Community Justice Center director, Betsy Smith and David Saltenshaw from the Central Park Conservancy, Tom Harris, Times Square Alliance, and Mekhan Kamara and Kenneth Winter for the New York Pedicab Alliance, and many others.

From my staff, former staff Sam Goldsmith started this whole discussion, and now Cynthia Hornig and Shula Puder are helping from my office, as well as the Legislative Division, Margaret Liford, Elliot Heisler, Neil Beckman, Wes Jones, Rachel Coduro, Sarah Swine, Natalie Meltzer, and Andrea Vasquez. And I really appreciate this hearing. It's long in the making, and I think it's really important.

And thank you very much.

Uh, thank you, Councilmember Brewer. And seeing no other people to issue opening statements, we're going to turn it over to the agency and get them sworn in. Do you affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth before this committee, and to respond honestly to councilmember questions? I do. Okay, and so here we have Carlos Ortiz, Deputy Commissioner, uh, Hilly Radiker, Associate Commissioner, and Ira Goldapper, who is a Deputy Commissioner for Uniformed Services.

We have on Zoom Councilmember Audubon and Councilmember Hanks, who's joined us in person. Please, please begin whenever you're ready. Thank you, Chair.

Good morning, Chair Epstein and members of the committee. I'll and Worker Protection. My name is Carlos Ortiz, and I am the Chief of Staff of the Department of Consumer and Worker Protection. I am joined by our Associate Commissioner of Intergovernmental Affairs, Haley Radecker, as well as my colleague, Ira Goldapper, Deputy Commissioner for Uniformed Services Bureau at the Taxi and Limousine Commission.

The New York City Department of Consumer Worker Protection is the nation's leading municipal enforcement agency charged with delivering economic justice. In New York City, we are also the licensing agency for both pedicab businesses and drivers. And we register pedicab vehicles as well. There are currently 130 active pedicab business licenses— licensees associated with 330 registered pedicab vehicles and approximately 600 active pedicab driver licenses.

Pedicab businesses are only allowed to operate a registered pedicab vehicle with a licensed pedicab driver. A pedicab business can have up to 30 registered vehicles. However, the total number of pedicab vehicles allowed to be registered with the city is capped at 840 vehicles. DCPD enforces rules regarding pricing and disclosure to consumers, as well as conducts annual compliance checks on pedicabs for issues like cab conditions, rate signage, and license disclosures.

On-street enforcement of pedicab activity is conducted by the NYPD or by the Parks Department if the activity is occurring in parkland. Over the past 3 years, our sister agencies have issued approximately 5,000 summonses to pedicabs for illegal activity. Candidly, in recent years, the pedicab industry has struggled with noncompliance, including unlicensed activity. This not only impacts consumers, but also the businesses that want to be in compliance and who engage hundreds of workers.

DCJP and our sister agencies have worked closely with each other and key community stakeholders to coordinate enforcement and educational activities to support this industry. This includes the development of educational literature, outreach initiatives, working closely with local associations such as the New York Pedicab Alliance, and standing up a Central Park task force for the enforcement activities referenced above.

We remain committed to working with our partners to come together on common-sense solutions for this industry.

Turning to today's legislation, Introduction 64 prohibits pedicab drivers from parking, stopping, or standing a pedicab, or picking up or dropping off passengers within 50 feet of any entrance or exit of a theater located in the Theater District Zone. It would also require the Department of Transportation to post signs or other markings indicating the areas in which such pedicab restrictions are applicable.

Pedicabs are already subject to all existing curb regulations for vehicles, such as existing no-standing signage. Most theaters have no-standing signs already, and there is an established process for a theater to request no-standing signage if there happens to be any locations that do not have it already. We defer to our colleagues at DOT and NYPD for further considerations regarding this bill.

Instruction 77 would require that the timer in pedicabs be affixed to the rear of the bicycle seat within clear view of all pedicab passengers. DCVP supports this bill. We share council's concerns related to consumer deception and scams for pedicab riders. We believe this legislation would not only assist consumers against overcharges but also on-street enforcement agencies against bad actors.

Instruction 673 would require DCVP to set fixed per per-minute rates for pedicab rides indexed to inflation. DCWP supports bringing better price clarity to consumers, particularly in the context of consumer deception and overcharges reported in this industry. However, price controls can also be an overly burdensome measure for the agency to set, as well as for businesses that are otherwise complying with the law.

Today, we are interested to hear from businesses— from business and worker stakeholders to understand the implications of price controls on their take-home pay and ability to operate.

Introduction 992 would require pedicabs to have meters to calculate the price of pedicab rides and registration plates with a scannable code that displays the pedicab registration number and business name. The bill would also require pedicab drivers to take a safety training developed by DCWP in order to obtain or renew a license. It would remove imprisonment for pedicab-related violations and specify that a pedicab driver may not use any device that makes illegal noise.

DCDEP supports the intent of this legislation. Requiring a meter would improve the consumer experience in this industry, especially for greater pricing clarity. Imprisonment should not be a penalty for pedicab-related violations, and devices that make illegal noise should be explicitly prohibited. However, other facets of this bill raise concerns for the agency. In particular, we do not have street safety expertise to develop a safety course that would be adequate for drivers.

Additionally, we are evaluating the potential high cost to mandating scannable registration plates. Thank you.

Instruction 1063 would allow pedicabs to be equipped with an electric motor of less than 750 watts that limits pedaling assistance when the pedicab reaches a speed of 15 miles per hour or any other speed determined by the Department of Transportation by rule. The New York City Police Department is concerned that allowing pedal assist will be problematic because it's very difficult for the officer to enforce this in the field.

Thank you for the opportunity to testify before your committee on today's legislation. We look forward to hearing from all relevant stakeholders today, and the administration stands ready to work with the council, stakeholders, and all our partners across city government to support a vibrant and robust pedicab industry that protects consumers, workers, and small businesses. I'll turn it over to my colleague at TLC.

Good morning, Chair Epstein and members of the Committee on Consumer and Worker Protection. Thank you for the opportunity to provide testimony on behalf of the New York City Taxi and Limousine My name is Ira Goldapper, and I serve as TLC's Deputy Commissioner for the Uniformed Services Bureau. TLC regulates New York City's taxi and for-hire vehicle industries, including approximately 180,000 licensed drivers and 115,000 vehicles.

Together, TLC licensees provide nearly 1 million trips each day. With approximately 440 employees, TLC carries out significant licensing, inspection, and enforcement responsibilities. In fiscal year 2026, we conducted more than 110,000 inspections, received over 29,000 complaints, and issued approximately 24,000 patrol summonses.

I would like to briefly address 2 bills for the committee today. Intro 1026 would allow pedicabs to use existing taxi and for-hire vehicle relief stands and require DOT to establish 15 additional relief stands in Midtown Manhattan exclusively for pedicabs. Taxi and FHV relief stands provide drivers with free legal parking so that they can use a bath— bathroom, eat a meal, and take a necessary break during their shifts.

Approximately 180,000 TLC-licensed drivers currently have access to 107 relief stands citywide. There is significant demand for curb space throughout the city, particularly in Midtown Manhattan, where pedicab activity is concentrated. space is especially limited. TLC believes it is important to consider the existing demand for taxi and FHV relief stands as the council evaluates this proposal. TLC does not support expanding the use of existing taxi and FHV relief stands to pedicabs, but concurs with the underlying premise of the bill that workers should have more space to rest on our city streets. streets.

These spaces are limited and already in high demand, and adding additional users would further constrain access to needed rest space for taxi and FHV drivers.

Intro 993 would transfer responsibility for regulating pedicabs from the Department of Consumer and Worker Protection to TLC. TLC's current regulatory framework is designed around the taxi and for-hire vehicle industries. Pedicabs under— operate under a different model and regulatory framework, including different vehicle types, operating patterns, and applicable laws. The concerns raised regarding the pedicab industry, including unlicensed activity and quality of life issues, are important and warrant careful consideration.

Any potential changes to the existing regulatory structure should be evaluated in the context of the expertise and operational needs of the agencies involved. This legislation would be extremely costly to implement, going well beyond existing resources. TLC remains committed to working with DCWP, DOT, the Council, and other partners to share our regulatory and enforcement expertise and support the development of an alternative approach to these issues, as we do not believe this bill is the best path forward.

Together— excuse me. Thank you, Chair Epstein and members of the committee, for the opportunity to provide TLC's perspective. We look forward to continuing to work with the Council and our agency partners.

Thank you. Thank you both. And I know we've been joined by Councilmembers De La Rosa, Maloney, and Arreola online. And I know we're going to get into some questioning. I just— so let me just talk about the violations. You mentioned 24,000 violations have been issued. How many of those resulted in some kind of fine, penalty, or sanction of $24,000?

Are you referring to the 24— are you— Asking about pedicab violations? Yeah, you said there are 24,000. Those are related to taxi for-hire vehicles. So we talked earlier about 1,200 pedicab violations in the last year, and seems like some less than 10% issue— there's some kind of action where there's an ongoing problem. What's happening there? Why is it so low?

What's going on with the enforcement actions that we're seeing on the ground that don't result in any kind of Thank you for that question, Chair. I think with respect to pedicab enforcement, on-street enforcement is handled by the Police Department or the Parks Department if it's happening in parkland. And my understanding is over the past 3 years they've issued approximately 5,000 summonses to pedicab operators.

In terms of the pathway and what it takes and what happens to adjudications, I don't have insight into that. Thank you. But we can get that information from the police department.

Yeah, I mean, honestly, if people think a ticket's meaningless, then there's no incentive to comply with the law if there's no incentive to comply with the law, right? So what's DCWP doing about that? You, you were— you had staff at this roundtable. You've heard the facts. You've seen the report. What are we doing about better compliance to make sure we move the industry to a more legal standard?

I mean, we don't want tourists coming here getting ripped off. You know, we all can't be Gail Brewer when we get on in a paddy cab. So how are we going to ensure that people are being protected? You're the Department of Consumer and Worker Protection. Thank you for that question, Chair. And I want to echo also the sentiments raised earlier in the opening statements that noncompliance is a serious problem, particularly for businesses that are following the rules, and I think it's inherently unfair that a business that follows the rules in one situation feels that others are getting away scot-free.

But for that reason, we have been working closely with our sister agencies to stand up coordinated enforcement activities. That includes summonses, that also includes at times confiscations, that includes trainings that we provide to the police officers. We also provide weekly reports to our sister agencies so they are aware of who the licensed actors are and ideally identify quicker who the unlicensed actors are.

We've also worked to update even what could seemingly sound like a minuscule thing, but updating the driver license, the pedicab driver license that drivers receive so it's harder to falsify. We've been working on these initiatives throughout the past 3 years, candidly, with our sister agencies in a measure to address compliance. That also ties into what we've been doing newly in this past year in this administration, which is creating deeper ties with stakeholders.

Our commissioner has met multiple times now with— to call out a few names— the New York Pedicab Alliance, the Times Square Bid, the Broadway Association, because we recognize that this is an issue that still requires more attention from the city. And from our perspective, this hearing is an opportunity for all of us And especially the stakeholders to raise those concerns because we do want to come up with solutions.

Yeah, well, what— I mean, I know you said you've kind of in the last 3 years moved forward in trying to improve the situation. Do you think today the situation is better than it was 3 years ago? Do you think this issue is solved? It seems like no one thinks we're at a place where we have appropriate solutions, especially on the ticketing and illegal pedicabs that are out on the street.

I think the issue— I mean, I think we're all aware that the issue is not solved. I think there are legislation on today's docket that we are supportive of that we want to make sure can be implemented, particularly around greater pricing clarity and disclosures to consumers. And I think there are measures that we can continue taking with our sister agencies on the enforcement side to ensure that enforcement is equitable and focused on the bad actors of the industry.

You mentioned confiscation. How many confiscations of pedicabs have happened? In the past 3 years? I'm sorry, Chair, I don't have the exact numbers on number of confiscations. Those are handled by the New York City Police Department. Can you get back to us with that information, please? So you know they've happened? Yes, they do conduct— we have been participating in coordinated activities around enforcement where confiscations are the result.

The agency, DCWP, does not have the capacity or ability to do confiscations, so we work with the police department to do that work.

So what do you say to a consumer who took a 20-minute pedicab ride and it cost them $1,000? What recourse does DCWP have in place to help that consumer, whether a tourist or a New Yorker, out in that situation? I think to a certain extent, In any situation when we're dealing with unlicensed actors, I think the message that we have to communicate to consumers is preventative.

Engaging with unlicensed actors, whether that's a home improvement contractor or a pedicab, it's particularly dangerous for a consumer because there is limited recourse because these actors can escape the ability for enforcement. I would say that if a consumer is engaging with a pedicab, to be sure that it's licensed, to ensure that they're capturing the license information the rate signage, and that they provide that information to the agency so that we can mediate.

And if we see a pattern of complaints happening with a particular business or driver, then we can investigate. So, you know, someone— let's say it's a tourist— comes to New York. They go to Central Park, and they are like, oh, I'm going to get on a pedicab. So they get on a pedicab. They don't know what's legal or not, because there's 40 pedicabs sitting right there, and they just choose one to get on.

And then at the end of the 20-minute ride, the guy, the guy or woman says, you know, $500. You know, how, how is your— how is that person ever going to have the information you're suggesting to be able to make that good faith argument? And what do they do after they've paid when they've figured out that they've been ripped off?

Like, what is DCWP doing to ensure that person who's been ripped off gets some kind of recourse? Any additional questions? Thank you for that question, Chair. I think what we worked over the past summer, particularly in the peak of the World Cup season, was to distribute as much information out as possible to consumers and tourists regarding their rights when they're using these services.

And that included working with the Hotel Association, New York City Tourism, creating signage in New York City parks with our Parks Department colleagues. If a tourist has an issue that comes up where they feel they've been scammed or overcharged or the pricing was inaccurate based on what they received, they can bring that to us. I think there are challenges though with that in the sense that, you know, a tourist— I think unfortunately sometimes we have situations where tourists kind of write it off and unfortunately they don't provide us all the information we need or also when we reach out to them, they don't follow up with us.

It makes it very difficult. I think ideally some aspects of the legislation on today's docket would improve that pricing clarity and improve how much a consumer could be charged in the first place, which I think would be beneficial for the industry. And even we could think of an industry where we are not just serving tourists, but we're serving New Yorkers as well.

I think that is the ultimate goal we have to have in the city for the pedicab industry, but that would require, to your point, a stricter regime with Well, how many complaints have been filed about pedicabs with your agency? Over this past 9 months, we've received approximately 135 complaints. That is not the totality of complaints the city receives, however.

Ours would typically be around overcharging or pricing, but if a complaint is related to motorized activity or unlicensed activity or something dangerous happening in the street, that would be routed to the Police Department. And do you know how many overall complaints for the last 9 months, including the overpricing and the other ones, other 311 complaints that might be directed to other agencies?

I, I don't have information on the, the what complaints the Police Department receives. I would say since 2022— And Carlos, can you get that for us? Yes, sir. Thank you. I would say since 2022, the agency has received, um, 335 And so beyond you and the NYPD, there are other agencies that are going to funnel complaints for pedicabs as well?

I believe that the majority of the complaints would go to police, the police department. I don't believe that complaints go to the Parks Department. How about loud music? Would that go to DEP? DEP is, yes, also involved in that, but those could also be sent to the police department too, because they have the ability to enforce on that.

So could you get us all the complaint numbers? How many went to DEP? How many went to the NYPD? How many went to the police department? DCWP, and what those bucket outcomes are? Were they resolved? They were disclosed? Like, you know, and of your complaints, how many resulted in people getting money back? I can speak to over the past year that we have not been able to action on any of the complaints we have received.

Because either the lack of information that we have been provided or consumers not following up when we reached out to them. Right. So of the 135, we have got zero that there is any follow-through on? Well, I would push back on that slightly. We do follow through. We immediately reach out to the consumer, and it is a priority for us to make sure that consumer hears from us.

In terms of actioning on the complaint subsequently, we have not been able to get— Of those complaints, how many did the consumer actually respond wanting to get redress? I think the issue with the complaints is either we don't have enough information to contact the consumer, or when we reach out to the consumer, they do not respond to us.

But some do respond, right? I don't think we have— we don't have data saying that somebody responded, but I can double-check that for you. I appreciate that.

Just to turn our attention to TLC. So can you talk about your street operations enforcement under TLC licensing, and so we understand what you're actually doing on the street? Because we hear from DCWP that basically they have no street-facing operation. They rely on NYPD. But you do have a street-facing operation, right? Thank you, Chair. We do. We target unlicensed-for-hire Operations with respect to taxis and for-hire vehicles across all 5 boroughs.

That includes as well as airports. There are major hotspots in, like I said, each of the boroughs— shopping centers, major— the major transportation hubs. It's a large city to cover, and we do our best to hit that. But one of the big pieces is that for effective unlicensed-for-hire activity enforcement, you have to hit the same bad actors with such regularity that it becomes cost prohibitive for them to continue to operate.

And that, that's something that is— it's difficult to cover all 5 boroughs. And you said how many violations have you issued this year for illegal operations? So calendar year to date, we've issued over 5,000 summonses for unlicensed operators as well as 790 summonses for illegal street hails. And then of those 5,000, how many of those resulted in some kind of actualized civil penalty or actions resulting in either termination of a license or some other enforcement action?

So, I don't have the specific numbers because of the— there is a delay between the issuance of the summons and when it gets through OATH. But in gen— and I can get— we can look to get somewhat of a breakdown you, but because of that gap, it won't be summons for summons. We can give you that sort of general percentages.

Do you have '25 data? I believe I do. Let me please check. Not just the overall number, but also how many resulted in enforcement. I'm sorry, we have our, our summonses related to the field summonses are not broken down into the type of summons. We can look to do that and get those numbers for you. Yeah, so how many people do you have issuing summonses?

How many people are out on the streets of New York? So the Enforcement Division within TLC's Uniformed Services Bureau has about 130 officers. That includes— including supervisors, managers, trainers, investigators. How many would be street enforcement staff? So about 85. 85 for the city? Correct. So it's 85 more than DCWP. But far fewer— but far less than needed to end unlicensed-for-hire activity within the taxi and for-hire vehicle.

That's a good budget conversation for us in the spring, for sure, to make sure that we want to make it fair for people who are protected from unlicensed vehicles. Just one more question for you, if I could. So increased enforcement, increase in authority on enforcement. Could those same inspectors, if they're sitting in Times Square, do enforcement For an illegal cab or illegal TLC cab or an illegal pedicab, could they be— and that person could actually do the same thing, or you'd have to hire a separate division of people to do pedicabs?

Well, it's not— that's somewhat of a difficult question given the complexities. We do not know the pedicab industry. I mean, something you can learn, obviously. People can learn. Sure. Absolutely. One thing to keep in mind is we don't believe enforcement alone is sort of the panacea to the industry. We've learned that with our own experience in enforcing against unlicensed-for-hire activity.

It requires significant education for the public, for one, to try to remove the demand for unlicensed activity, as well as an understanding and stakeholder engagement with the industries to understand what are the barriers for entry, what's, what's precluding individuals from actually getting licensed and doing what they're supposed to be doing, and getting to those root causes. So it's more than just enforcement. in order to achieve the results.

So how would you do education in this industry on the pedicabs? Like, obviously, majority or vast majority of the people using them aren't New Yorkers. They are people who are coming in, whether driving in or flying in. They're not here for extended periods of time. What tools would you have to do that kind of education that you're referencing If you're saying enforcement isn't going to be the answer to this problem.

Thank you, Chair. Let me take that question to recap kind of the educational initiatives we've been taking. Because I hear your point. I think there is a difficulty when there's a moving group that's not based in the city. So what we've tried to leverage is, I guess, really a relational aspect to this. Creating deep ties with the industry to make sure they understand their obligations for compliance, but also so they can help disseminate the educational materials that we've developed for tourists in general, but also in pedicabs in particular.

We've worked also with, for example, the Hotel Association, New York City Tourism. We've also done canvases of certain areas of the city like Central Park to meet consumers directly. And we've also been trying to leverage as much as possible for tourists coming to the city, our social media footprint, which we've been expanding in the past 9 months, to showcase our partnership with the industry and the obligations of the industry too.

Just to— and I'm going to— I know my colleagues have questions too, but to be honest, so when I'm visiting another city and I'm going to do a tourist-related thing, probably the last thing I'm doing is going to DCWP's social media page and be like, what is the industry? Like, it's not a realistic scenario to say, I'm gonna go visit, go to Prague, and I'm gonna like get on a bus and I'm gonna figure out what the city agency in a language that I probably don't speak is gonna say about what the rules are around.

It just, I just, it belies like— Well, I would say that any one of those tools by itself is not going to work. But the purpose of using all these different tools is to create an ecosystem where we're trying to get this information out. It is a process. I've been in— I've done community fairs now 10 years of my career, and it's hard work.

You're physically in the field trying to talk to people in real-time settings. Um, not to say it's always perfect, but we work at it. Well, that's something like that— physically in the field where people are, where these hubs are, is a really good way of getting to people instead of like using social media. Unfortunately, it's a staffing requirement, but it might be something that might really be beneficial to have people out and about, especially in areas where we see high concentrations of this issue happening.

We do, and we ourselves conduct an immense amount of outreach. And just this year, I like to say that, or I consider that our outreach team is probably the best outreach team in the city. And just this year, with a team of 6, we've been able to reached nearly 100,000 New Yorkers. Over the summer, reaching 30,000 people in the streets about worker rights and consumer rights, particularly in the peak of the tourist season.

We have been— myself and Haley have been on the ground at Central Park and the Theater District to talk to pedicab folks, to talk to tourists in the streets. So it is work that we are actively putting in every day.

All right. I want to turn it over to some of my colleagues. I know Councilmember Wilson and then Councilmember Thank you, Chair.

So you said— I'm sorry I missed your testimony, but I'm reading it here— that the number of pedicab vehicles is capped at 840. That's correct. Are we at that cap? Currently there are 330 registered vehicles with the city. How many do you suspect are not registered? My understanding of some of the public reporting out there, that there could be approximately 1,200 unlicensed or unregistered vehicles.

And when a vehicle license is issued, there are terms which would cause them to lose that license, right? That's correct. And what are some of those? Are those like, you know, Are things like noise or traffic violations part of what you would use to revoke a license? It would be a certain number of violations adjudicated over a period of time that would allow us to go and try to revoke or suspend a license.

But additionally— Go ahead, please finish. Additionally, there are certain requirements specific to this industry related to, for example, insurance. And in the case of an insurance of a pedicab business is voided for any particular reason, we would void the license as well. But DCWP doesn't get the direct reports of infractions, right? You said like DEP is called to some, NYPD is called to some.

That's correct, Councilmember. The on-street enforcement is handled by the Police Department. And in terms of the summons information, we don't receive it directly. So do you speak with them? Does NYPD report to you infractions that they've had, or how are you coordinating with the other agencies to enforce infractions? Thank you for the question, Councilmember. So we do coordinate with the Police Department and the Parks Department for on-street enforcement.

That includes providing them with regular updates about the license in the industry. But they don't report to you. They don't. If they get a number of pedicab complaints or actions that they take, they don't hand that information over to you. We don't have the outcomes necessarily from those adjudications. So there could be infractions that are being reported, but DCWP doesn't know what they are, so you can't— We don't receive that information.

You can't enforce around bad actors. So I think that's one of the reasons that I think perhaps another agency is better equipped to keep this, you know, to really enforce among bad actors that has that kind of enforcement ability on the ground. Because I think, you know, in my district, you know, we do— we get complaints all the time about particularly a lot of noise, like traffic infractions, where other agencies are being called.

But— you know, that's not getting back to your agency that issues the, you know, the permits for this. So do you have— is there— if it were to remain at DCWP, how could you, you know, fill that gap? What would be like— could— how could we fix that? Well, I think if we're going to— Excuse me. I think we want to continue building our ties with, with the community stakeholders to ensure that they understand the obligations they have.

Additionally, I think we want to work with PD in particular to facilitate a lot of the enforcement that's required for the unlicensed activity. I actually don't think necessarily it's the licensed actors that are causing the problems in this industry. I like, and we work closely with these folks too. I know that they want to be compliant. They're doing as much as they can to follow follow the rules.

I think it's really the unlicensed actors that are causing the biggest issues, and I think we need to figure out some solutions for how we can bring better enforcement efforts against those. Thank you.

All right, thank you, Councilmember Wilson. Now we're going to go to Councilmember Brewer and then Councilmember Hanks.

Thank you. Danielle, you need to fill out a form. Whoever's here from Midtown, you need to— I can see you. You need to fill out a form. A couple questions for Carlos, the great Carlos Diaz. What if you— I mean, in some cases you stated this PD can decide, somebody else can decide. How do you suggest, other than, you know, because it's not TLC yet, I hope it is, how do you suggest this industry be improved?

What would be some specific suggestions that you would make? I mean, we've got electric issues, we've got timing issues. We've got all the topics that I think were covered in some of this legislation. What would you do specifically to improve this industry? I think, and I can speak from my own personal experience as well, I think the pricing— You take a pedicab too?

I've taken a pedicab. Oh, good. Pricing definitely impacted And I think that some of the legislation, for example, today related to meters and rates, I think could be a vast improvement on the industry as well. So I think that's just the consumer side of things. It ensures clarity, ensures that we're all operating on the same level playing field.

I think that would be a big help to the industry. When you say level playing field, what do you mean? What does that mean? I like— I mean, what do I mean? I mean that it's good for a consumer and a business to have the same understanding of what the outcome of a transaction is going to be.

And a meter could facilitate that, or rates could facilitate that. I think it's also important from business to business as well, that they have a mutual understanding of what's going to happen when a transaction with a consumer occurs. So that's what I would like to elaborate on, leveling the playing field. Okay.

I mean, 330 have a license. 1,200 operating. I think that's probably correct. But how does one go about getting a license? And, um, I think— I don't know if you answered this, but how many have been suspended, if any, recently? Thank you for the question, Councilmember. Um, there's a— it's a— there's an annual lottery that the agency conducts over the springtime to issue registration plates to licensed pedicab businesses.

And whenever— once you're selected for a lottery, you can get the registration plate. I think in the last lottery, was it— We were able to get up to 330 total registered vehicles. When you become a licensee, we do compliance checks on your vehicle to ensure that the the cab condition is accurate, the signage is accurate. We do those annually.

If a business fails that annual inspection, we will take away the plate until there is a correction to that issue. But I think, you know, again, there is a small subset of actors— there is a small subset of the industry that are following the rules. That is 330 folks. But clearly for all of us who have been in these spaces, we know that there is more pedicabs operating out there.

My most recent pedicab driver was He was Russian, and I was on my way to the chess championship, and he joined me. You never know what's next. What is— in terms of insurance, I guess that's the same issue. Are they supposed to have insurance? And how does that work in terms of obviously being expensive? I know there are very few companies that provide it.

How does the insurance work, if at all? So the Administrative Code requires these businesses to carry insurance, and my understanding is there's upwards— there's up to 6 companies currently offering the industry insurance. But the costs have been going up in recent years, and that has also been difficult for the business actors to be able to get their license.

In terms of determining how an insurance policy, if it's compliant with the Ad Code, we work with the Law Department to review those policies. policies. Okay, and then how does— do you talk to Oath about those cases that are brought to Oath? Um, how many cases do you know in what time period are brought to Oath, and what happens there?

Do you have any sense of that effort? My understanding is the majority of the summonses that PD issues are not to Oath. Um, they issue principally, uh, C summonses or B summonses with OATH, but there are some that do go to OATH, so we're working to build ties with OATH for greater information transmission. And it helps that our former commissioner is there as well, so we'll be reaching out to them to see if we can formalize that.

In other words, the ones that PD deals with, they deal with themselves. Those are the ones that the chair was asking about that often don't go very far. The reason they don't go very far is the cops with all due respect, don't know how to write. And so it's hard to read. And then the judge says, sorry, can't read it, goodbye.

Because I go to the court and I listen, and that's what happens. So that's a whole other topic about writing versus putting it on some kind of a digital format. But, um, so your cases don't go to oath? Your cases do or do not go to oath? I thought they did. Our cases would go to oath, but that's what I thought.

The on-street enforcement is, is being handled by PD. Okay. The other question I have is the electric bike versus regular bike. Now, my understanding is pedicabs are supposed to be regular bike and not electric. They are mostly, I think, almost 100% electric. How do you handle that? I personally feel they should be electric because it's hard to pedal and you want to get people where you're going.

So how do you handle that issue? So you're correct. that pedicabs are not allowed to be motorized right now, and it is grounds for the police to issue a summons or to confiscate a vehicle. Let me— and I want to get back to another question you asked earlier, Councilmember, so let me throw it to my colleague to describe the revocations we've done.

Yeah, sorry. So just on our revocations, we typically will move to revoke licenses during the renewal period. So since 2022, we have revoked about 90 licenses for pedicabs. 21 of those were for drivers and 68 were for businesses. All right, thank you. I'll do other questions, second round.

I'm going to turn it over to Councilmember Hangs and then Councilmember Maloney. Thank you, Chair. My line of questioning is also surrounding around the motorized— the electric motor allowing on pedicabs with Intro 1063. A council investigation found that the vast majority of pedicabs have motors despite being prohibited. Do you think that registered pedicabs are retrofitting their vehicles with pedal assist, or are these primarily unregistered devices?

I think it's, you know, it's hard to say. I would think that You know, there's 330 registered pedicab vehicles. I think we talked earlier about reporting showing there's much more unlicensed vehicles out there. I would tend to think that it's the unlicensed actors that are not following the rules of the road, so to speak. But certainly our annual compliance checks are— we're reviewing for the motors not being present.

Thank you. And what do you see this— where do you see this going with so many unregistered vehicles? NYPD has their own opinion. We are definitely trying to come up with legislation and policy that will keep New Yorkers safe. But it seems like this is one of those spaces where we may not have the resources. I think when you testified, Mr.

Goldapper, that some of this legislation is extremely costly to implement. If you can kind of talk about where do you think this is going as far as enforcement and policy and where the council and the administration can kind of meet in the middle? I can start and then I'll throw it over to my colleague. You know, I think to echo Councilmember Brewer's statement at the top, I think this hearing is long overdue.

There are solutions that we could have that we can agree on already on pricing, for example, that I think would help improve the industry. And I think there's more work needs to be done. DCP, candidly, I think we want to make sure we're creating deeper ties with the sister agencies that are conducting the on-street enforcement. Because ultimately, we do want to have an industry that is successful for not just tourists, but New Yorkers in the future as well.

To the second part of your question, let me throw it over to my colleague, Deputy Commissioner Goldapper. Thank you. So any increase in scope will certainly require additional resources, refer, you know, as with respect to updating equipment and technologies, staffing for enforcement and prosecution, and the level of engagement needed to actually understand the issues at hand. We do not— TLC does not know the pedicab industry.

We are familiar with the for-hire vehicle and taxicab industry, and we are more than willing to work as partners with DCWP and other sister agencies as well as the council to come up and assist with the approach. There are a number of things that I don't— excuse me— I don't believe it could just be as simple as a copy and paste of how we regulate taxis.

It's a different industry, and— but we are more than happy to share the things that we do within licensing. licensing, inspections, enforcement. And the subject matter experts can then review these things to determine what may be applicable or appropriate within the pedicab industry. Thank you. I appreciate that. I think that we will have to dig into that offline.

But back to a question for you. Do you receive a lot of consumer complaints about pedicabs with electric assist? The agency does not receive those complaints. I believe they would go directly to the police department. Got it. So maybe we should have Public Safety here as well. Do you think it's appropriate for pedicabs to use electric pedal assist?

No, I think— in speaking with my colleagues at DOT and NYPD, who I think we would defer to on kind of the street safety aspects of this policy. I know DOT has concerns about allowing more electric vehicles on the streets if enforcement is still an issue. I know PD has a concern with identifying vehicles, make sure they're going the right speed.

But that said, we also have a lot of businesses and workers that are trying to make a living out there. And the vehicles would help them do that. So I think there's a balance there where we should hear both sides of that. But I could see how it's difficult to move into that space until we have greater compliance happening in the industry overall.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Councilmember Hankson. I'm going to hand it over to Councilmember Maloney. And after Councilmember Maloney, Councilmember Schulman. Thank you, Chair Epstein. And thank you for your testimony and for being here. I represent the east side of Manhattan and parts of Midtown. And I don't think it's a coincidence we've got, of the questions, 4 out of 5 coming from folks who represent Manhattan.

Do you have data on the geographic breakdown? I know we were digging into a lot of the numbers around the number of pedicabs, the number of pedicabs that are unlicensed, as well as the complaints and summonses by geographic area or by borough. We do not have that data broken down by— it's with the Police Department. But we can request the Police Department to provide us the geographic breakdown for you, Councilmember.

That would be great. And what about where the vehicles operate right now? My understanding is predominantly they're operating in Central Park and the Theater District. And then what about the enforcement resources? Are they appropriate? appropriately allocated by geographic area where we're seeing the vast majority of the pedicab activity? Well, the enforcement resources, you know, it's the Police Department and the Parks Department conduct the on-street enforcement.

I know they have established commands in Central Park and parts of Midtown, and that they'll strategically deploy more folks to help with enforcement when there are operations happening or there's peak seasons happening. Thank you. I think just echoing some of the comments from earlier, it seems that 2 of the major— 3 of the major enforcement agencies are not at the table.

So NYPD, DOT, Parks, with DCWP only covering a small piece of the pie of the complaints that we're hearing on the ground. There's the tourist issues with scams and overcharging, but the vast majority are safety issues, feeding noise complaints and then standing in no-standing zones and cluttering the streets, which is what is the motivation behind the bill that is in this package to create buffer zones of about 50 feet or so from these major tourist destinations.

One of the things we're spending a lot of time talking about is TLC versus DCWP, better coordination with NYPD. One of the concerns I have is we need a solution now. How long would it take if we were to shift this responsibility over to TLC to build up that capacity to enforce? Thank you, Councilmember. It's actually very difficult to estimate.

There are a number of, I guess, new bills related to the industry floating around, whether it's manual pedal versus e-bike. So we would need to sort of have a better understanding of the full responsibilities required in order to do that. But we could work with OMB for a timeline and estimation of the resources needed. Because we would still have to ensure that the for-hire vehicle industry needs are met as well.

We have over 180,000 licensed drivers across the City of New York. Can I also just clarify something I think I was imprecise about? NYPD and the Parks Department are the primary enforcement agencies on the street. The DOT is not involved in the enforcement side of that picture. One other— I want to introduce 2 solutions, creative solutions to try to get to enforcement, which it sounds like we all agree is one of the biggest issues.

Are there technologies that are being explored? to ensure that pedicabs are operating where they're supposed to, are not standing? And then BIDs often have jurisdiction or are supporting many of the areas where pedicabs are operating. Is there a way that the enforcement powers could be expanded to BIDs? Or any other creative solutions you have to help us get to the enforcement issue as fast as possible?

Yeah, I would say the BIDs have been great partners to us on this issue. I would certainly be interested in looking into more of how we can support one another in terms of any enforcement activities. And the first part of your question, I'm sorry, I'm— Technologies that could be explored or any other ideas for how to get to enforcement, which it sounds like we all agree is the biggest challenge here.

Yeah, so we are looking to create greater connections via automated reports between agencies so that we can move get that information on a regular basis and move quicker. That work is ongoing.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Councilmember Maloney. Now over to Councilmember Schulman. Hi, good morning. I am from Queens, but I do have constituents that use the pedicabs and come to Manhattan and all of that. So a question for you. complainant file a noise-related complaint about a pedicure business or driver to DCWP? That was hers. Yeah, it's not you, Len.

I believe if somebody filed a— if somebody filed a 311 complaint, um, about noise, it would go to the police department or go to DEP. You know, maybe there's— I mean, the legislation's not on the table here, but maybe it's a question of with— I have a bill in to 311 complaints to go to where the actual issue is, the agency.

So just FYI there. But— Well, I think in the issue of a consumer complaining about noise happening in the street, I think from our perspective, we want to try to address it in real time as quickly as possible. Understood. Or bring the enforcement agent that can bring the summons against that activity. And that's why it goes to PD or to the DEP.

Although I know that sometimes— I understand. It's just they're all over the place, so we don't have exactly— yeah. So we need to have some kind of protocol. All right. In relation to that question, if so, in the past year, how many noise-related complaints have been filed against pedicab drivers? Do you have an idea of that or you don't?

We don't have that data. You don't. All right. Can you get that? Yes, Councilmember. All right. How many of those complaints resulted in penalties imposed on the pedicab driver or the pedicab business? Does that eventually— For noise complaints, we would have to— You'd have to. Get that from the other agencies. I'm going to go on to different questions.

Apologies, Councilmember. That's all right. You know, how many— let's see. We know that overcharging is the most frequent pedicab complaint to 311 and DCWP. That's you, right, Carlos? Okay. Great. Can you share more details about the content of these complaints? For example, are they related to exorbitant prices or alleging that pedicab drivers are charging consumers more than the posted I think it's case by case.

It could be a mix. I would say when we've— when I've looked through the complaints and the coding, I see the vast majority seem to be more about overcharging and less about the advertising per se. So I would say, yeah, since 2022, 335 complaints related to overcharging.

Does the administration have any concerns about setting a per-minute rate for pedicabs that's indexed to inflation? What do you think about fixed rates? I think, as I was mentioning earlier, pricing clarity is something that I think this industry could benefit from. Fixed rates is, however, I think it's a big step, not just for the agency but also for the businesses and for the workers.

So I think we want to— I think I want to make sure that I have understanding of the implications on those businesses ability to operate, the compliant businesses, and how fixed rates would impact them. Certainly meters is a conversation we're ready to have. I think meters would be very beneficial. Fixed rates, I think, is something that we still want to talk through with the council.

So related a little bit to what the chair asked before in terms of if you go somewhere else, another city, another country, or whatever, does the administration have any concerns with creating a scannable code that can be used to trace the pedicab registration number and the name of the pedicab business? That we are still evaluating for the cost on scannable registration.

But we can— should this bill advance, we could provide those costs. Because if you have scannable codes, then it would help somebody actually have scannable codes to how much they're supposed to charge and all that kind of— all of that, that somebody who's not from here, you know, from somewhere else can do that. Yes, I understand the goals. for the scannable codes.

I think for us, we would like to share budgetary implications for creating that scannable code for the smaller industry that we license. But not to say that we're— sorry. No, no, go ahead. I was going to say, not to say that we're not open to having a discussion about this. It's just that we want to make sure we're sharing the full context of the implications of legislation.

A council investigation found that the vast majority of pedicabs have motor— oh, we did this already. You know, the administration tends to say it doesn't have the resources to do some of this stuff, but also the burden then goes down on the consumer eventually. So we have to try to really figure that out and work with you guys.

I think these bills are pretty good in what they're asking for, and I think that they're practical. So we're going to have— we have to find some solutions. because every agency is having resource issues. I appreciate the work you do, by the way. I just want to say that. Thank you, Councilmember Brennan. I share the sentiment as well that these problems need to be addressed and we need to come up with creative solutions for them as well.

Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Councilmember Schulman.

I'm going to come back to me for a few minutes, if that's okay. So you mentioned the lottery. How often do you do a lottery for pedicab licensing? It's an annual lottery, Chair. And do you— if someone wants to apply outside the lottery, can they do that? My understanding is you can apply for the license and then the lottery throughout the year, and then when you want to get the vehicle plates, you go through the lottery.

Okay, so today I leave here, I'm like, you know, I really want to be a pedicab driver. And so I can go fill out a form now, and that'll be valid until you decide if I'm eligible? For the driver license, you can apply for that. There's no cap on driver license, and you can become a driver. For pedicab businesses, you apply for the pedicab business license, and once you receive that license, you can submit for the lottery when the lottery happens once a year to get a registered vehicle with the city.

And so the registered vehicle is— that's how I can get on the streets? Yeah. And when does that lottery happen? It's in the springtime. I think it's April. And so the pedicab businesses can only operate a registered vehicle. And the only person who's allowed to be behind the handlebars of that vehicle is a pedicab driver. So you're saying if I want to get a— I decide I have a career change and I want to get a vehicle, I have to wait till the spring time to be able to do that.

But in the springtime, since you have over 800 available but only 300 issued, who gets turned down then from those applications? I think it's a mixture of folks who might submit for the lottery, but then when they get awarded, they don't pick up the plate for whatever reason. And also people just not— the full applicants to the lottery are not equal to the amount of registration plates available.

How many applied last year for the lottery? Since 2024, we've had, uh, 311, uh, pedicab businesses apply for the lottery. Each year, or just— do they get renewal every year? Renewals as well. So what percentage of people get turned down who apply? I'm not sure if we're turning down people at the lottery stage. It's more once you're a pedicab business and you apply for the lottery, you can get the plate.

And we do a qualifying inspection. That's the annual inspections to ensure that the vehicle is compliant. If you've received the plate and we— And still don't comply. inspect you and your vehicle's not compliant, we would take that plate back. And you're not allowed to operate that vehicle. Right. So assuming someone's got a vehicle and a personal license, they can ride the vehicle, and it's operational, what percentage of those people are— is there anyone who's getting turned down who's applying?

Or are they all just, once they apply and have a licensed vehicle, they're going to be able to become a pedicab operator? No, we have been denying folks at renewal and revoking licenses. I know you mentioned you revoked 90. Approximately 90, yes. But those people then were able to get new licenses again? Were those 90 able to, in subsequent years, get a license back?

Typically, there's a cooling-off period after you've lost a license, and I think it's like a year, and then you can come back and get another license. So of those 90, how many of them are currently operating? I don't have that information, Chair. Could you get it for us? Yes, Chair. And so why do you think the vast majority of people, 3/4 of the people who are operating in this industry, don't— aren't even bothering to apply for a license Either for themselves or for their vehicle then?

I think over the past few years, noncompliance has been particularly centered around unlicensed activity. I think when you have unlicensed activity and you're a licensed actor, there's— the incentives are off. And that's why I think we need to focus our enforcement education efforts back onto this industry. As a city overall. So you're saying people are making a cost-benefit analysis.

They're saying the cost of applying for a license versus the risk of not applying for the license, 3/4 of people are not applying because it's— they, in that risk analysis they're making, they're thinking it's more beneficial not to apply for the license because we'll have less oversight. You know, I think, I think that could be part of it.

But also, I, I, you know what I'd be really interested to hear on this question too is the compliant actors right now. I think they could really speak to us about, like, why they're seeing in their industry unlicensed activity. I think there's an aspect of— I think it's always— it's inherently unfair for one business to be trying to comply as much as possible and other ones are not.

And we, as an enforcement mechanism, we want to ensure, generally as an administration, that the folks who are following the rules are rewarded, so to speak. We touched upon earlier insurance as well. My understanding from speaking to workers and businesses is that insurance costs are going up too. I don't know if that's tied into the unlicensed activity as well.

I think that's something to investigate further.

So let me ask you, since this becomes a vastly unregulated industry by DCWP, since 3/4 of the people aren't licensed, so they're not regulated by you, passing further regulations is still just going to then potentially hurt the licensed people who are already being regulated by you, because you can revoke their license, and give more free rein to the unregulated people, because they're like, well, not being regulated now, so the additional regulations won't hurt them.

How do we incentivize it enough to get people in the fold to actually apply? Well, I think let's, let's take an example of, of the meters or rates, for example, or improved signage around rates. That is something that the police department would be able to enforce, whether that's an unlicensed or a licensed actor. So I think there's an ability to have new regulations here that we could use as further tools for enforcement of the issues that are arising.

I think to what we've been discussing throughout the day is we need other solutions as well in terms of greater communication channels between agencies, greater communication channels with stakeholders. These things we also have to incorporate. I mean, I'm just worried that The tool we have in our tool belt, which is ticketing, seems like not a really strong enforcement mechanism here to force people into a legal system.

And I'm wondering what advice, as the overseeing agency, would have to craft other solutions besides just having NYPD continue to ticket and And 90% of those tickets aren't enforced. Like, what other tools do you think you need to have? We're talking about pricing, you know, obviously that's a— but that's just— if people don't list the prices, it's just more tickets.

Like, I think we need other tools here to be able to push people into a regulatory scheme. I think we're open to having that conversation about what additional tools the administration can have for this industry. And you just haven't come up with tools? Well, we've been working with folks in this room to try and address the situation for years, and we want to keep working at that.

There's tools that ideally the council can give us today, and we'd be very excited for that. But it doesn't mean the conversation stops there. I know Councilmember Brewer has additional questions, so I want to hand it over to her.

Thank you. Just a couple because I want to hear from people in the room. From the Taxi and Limousine Commission, you have peace officers, right? They could in fact do pedicabs. Obviously, funding is an issue. I know. And I want to thank your commissioner. We had a great conversation and I appreciate her input. But can you— I mean, TLC really has the authority already in some sense with peace officers to do the enforcement.

Do you believe that? If you had more money, it would be nice. I'll never say no to more resources. The chair said he was going to get you some more. One thing I— He's good for it, I know. One thing I want to sort of point out, because I might not have been clear when I initially discussed what we do.

We do not— when we target unlicensed-for-hire activity, we are not patrolling across the 5 boroughs. We— You only have one borough. I still— I'm still responsible for the 180,000 licensed pedicabs. I know, I'm just saying with pedicabs, you only have one borough. Go ahead. So we're not patrolling. These are targeted enforcement operations. And I know some of the issues that arose, you know, I'm hearing quality of life issues.

We're not here to look to duplicate those quality of life enforcement that's handled by NYPD, sanitation, DEP, we specifically target unlicensed-for-hire operations. So when the idea of a quick response to, say, a noise complaint, we may not be there. In fact, because of the geographical constraints of the city for us and how large it is, we'll likely not be there.

So the idea that week, you know, someone makes a complaint for noise and we don't respond. You know, I hope I'm making that clear. It is targeted enforcement. And the other aspect is, you know, unlicensed-for-hire activity is in all 5 boroughs. Any— Any— sort of diversion of resources is really going to be pulling resources from the outer boroughs.

No, I understand that, but I'm just saying peace officers could in fact, in the description, operate within the confines of what you do now. It could be applied to pedicabs without getting into some of the other agencies and what they do. You know, I'm not actually entirely sure. I think that's true, but I won't say— Our status is through the Special Patrol Right.

We currently have a bill out there being considered to give us peace officer status without the special patrolman designation through NYPD. Okay. And that's— so I don't want to give you incorrect information. Okay.

It's part of the ongoing discussion. One more question for consumer. How many people would it take, do you think, to license pedicabs? Obviously, there are different agencies. complicated, but what do you think would be a good number? Currently, you know, we don't have a dedicated pedicab unit for licensing and reviews of licenses by our general counsel. It's work that's incorporated into the everyday tasks.

I would say full FTE, full-time employee, it's probably Approximately two to three. And thank you, Councilmember Brewer. Just just a couple last questions, and I'll let you all go. So DCWP does have some people who do enforcement out on the street. So if there's someone selling illegal, I don't know, I don't know. If you go to someone selling illegal cigarettes, a Ben Brother, a They're not licensed for tobacco, or they're licensed for tobacco and they're doing— selling something else.

You have people who go out and do that enforcement, correct? Um, yes. Can I elaborate a little bit more though? Um, uh, those folks are focused on brick-and-mortar inspections. And why? Why are they focused on brick-and-mortar? I think, um, you know, speaking from my experience over the past 10 years, there are inherent challenges that we, our inspectors, face, uh, when conducting enforcement in public spaces.

I'm speaking from experience of street vending enforcement, for example, ticket seller enforcement. Our folks are not police officers or officers in any kind of way. They don't have badges. They don't have the ability to detain people. In fact, we've actually had cases where our inspectors engaging in this type of enforcement in public spaces have been assaulted or threatened.

Even in the context of, you know, an unlicensed smoke shop, and we've shared this with the council previously, We have had inspectors who have had doors closed on their hands or shutters brought down on their feet. It's really challenging for us then to try to expand that out into on-street enforcement of moving vehicles or our ambulant actors.

Well, you could do enforcement in collaboration with another enforcement agency. You could do the pedicab enforcement along with NYPD. You could have staff on site. You could both issue violations through DCWP and through NYPD, right? We have done that in the past. I think, you know, without disparaging at all my colleagues in enforcement work who do amazing work, there is a certain redundancy and liability there.

You know, in the context of that inspector who was assaulted during a ticket-selling operation, he was with a police officer and it just created kind of another exposure for an assault. So I think that's why we try to, as much as possible, leverage you know, our expertise, um, on the licensing and, and broader investigation scale, uh, while PD's footprint on the on-street presence.

Yeah, I hear you, and I'm just having a hard time figuring out, like, if we are, we are having a problem of, like, 3/4 of this industry is illegal, and we're— we all acknowledge it's a problem, and we acknowledge that we need to do better enforcement to fix the problem. And we do have existing tools. Obviously, we want to give you more tools.

But it's like if someone's— if I tomorrow wanted to go and start selling alcohol at a store around the corner from my house, I don't have a license to do it. I would just get shut down. It would be easy to shut me down. And the state liquor authority and everyone else would be like, you can't do that.

But I don't know why it seems Like, when we see unlicensed activity, they're basically taking advantage of tourists and sometimes New Yorkers. Why this seems like it's a harder effort? And so that's what I'm struggling with here. I think for us, you know, I think the on-street enforcement creates a challenge for us with the tools that we have available.

So what tools would you want to have available if you were going to do on-street enforcement then? What additional tool would be helpful? I don't know if pushing the agency into on-street enforcement is the right approach for this work, given the fact that our inspectors are not equipped for that. I think the strength of this agency, as we've showcased over the past year, if not more, is our ability to bring enforcement actions through investigations against larger players in the industry.

I know in the context of ticket sellers— But Carlos, why stay involved in this industry at all then? It's not leaning into your strengths. Why do we just not— you can still license and let enforcement happen in other places because it doesn't seem like NYPD has the tools and they're struggling. Why are we not thinking creatively about a better way to do enforcement here?

And I think that's what I think Councilmember Brewer and I were trying to get at here. It's like we have a problem that we should be able to fix here, and I think we're dancing around that a bit. I would say, I would say coming to this hearing today, uh, we want to be a— we want to be a part of this conversation as an administration.

We recognize that there are issues with this industry, the issues with the way that things are set up, and this is not, I think, the— a period on what's the conversation. This is a part of, I think, a larger solution, uh, goal setting we have to All right, thank you.

I appreciate all your time, and unless there's any more questions from our colleagues, this panel is dismissed. If people in the public are here to testify, they should be signing up with the sergeant for testimony. Thank you. I remind members of the public that this is a formal government proceeding. Decorum shall be observed at all times. Please be silent and don't approach the witness table.

There's no video recording or photography allowed at the witness table. Members of the public may not present audio or video recordings at testimony, but they can submit transcripts and such stuff to the sergeant-at-arms later. Again, please, if you want to testify, sign up to testify. And you know the hearing topics. If you have written testimony, you can do that and submit that to the sergeant-at-arms.

Or you can do it online. or submit that within 72 hours. And we now have our first panel, which is Danielle Minklis, Kenneth Winter, and McCann Camara.

Hi. Yep. Okay. Okay, great. That's all right. We just— we have our first panel. If you You want to just start and we can get to the other panelists after? Go ahead. Sure. Good morning. Well, before we start, we're also joined by Councilmember Banks. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. I'm Danielle Mendez. I oversee the Midtown Community Justice Center where the pedicab criminal summonses are heard.

Thank you, Chair Epstein, and members of the committee for hearing this package of bills that reflect the recommendations surfaced at the roundtable we held late last year. Those recommendations guided the development of Intros 77, 673, 1026, 1063, 992, and 993. Together, these bills include the components of comprehensive reform required to fix this dysfunctional industry. The current status quo does not incentivize drivers to get licensed.

It does not incentivize vehicle owners to register their vehicles. Vehicles can't easily be connected to their owners. It does not allow consumers to easily identify legitimate pedicabs on the street or to know how much a ride will cost. The signage DCWP currently provides for registered cabs is printed off a computer. Anybody could make one. It simultaneously criminalizes a primarily immigrant workforce by relying on law enforcement to respond to infractions in what should be a professional industry.

There's been a lot of discussion today and around this issue in general around overcharging consumers and ripping off tourists, and I just want to be really clear that this is not what we're seeing in court. Those issues are not being handled at all. In most cases, these kinds of infractions would constitute misdemeanor arrests, not summonses, and we're not seeing those.

The cases coming into court are most frequently over the last 3 months. These are the most frequent summonses: pedicabs without headlights, pedicabs without battery-operated taillight, without registration, no pedicab driver license, and operating in a bicycle lane. The things that people really care about are not being addressed in court and are largely not being addressed at all. There's something wrong with an industry if every worker who operates within it ends up in criminal court at some some point.

And yet none of the issues people care about are actually being addressed. We expect that shifting oversight of pedicabs from DCWP to TLC will bring about the licensing and enforcement changes required for a healthy industry, but only if additional resources are provided to that agency to do it the right way. This hearing represents a chance for the council to pass public policy solutions that have the full support of almost all parties who care about this issue.

We were able to confirm that when we had our roundtable and wrote our report. I thank you very much for your consideration. Okay, go ahead, sir.

Chair and members of the committee, my name is Makan Kamara, president of the New York Pedicab Alliance, known as NYPA. 2 years ago, we came together because we were afraid of losing the work that feeds our family. Honest drivers were being judged by the actions of people who cheated passengers. We could not— we could not stand by and let those people destroy everything we had worked for.

That is why we created NYPA in 2024. We are pedicab drivers and owners who spend our days on the streets welcoming visitors and showing them the city we love. When we finish a long day of pedaling, we go home as parents, spouses, and people whose families depend on us. For us, protecting this industry means protecting our ability to put food on the table and pay the rent.

Our members gave from their earnings to keep this effort going. Our committee gave their time, their money, and their energy. Even when people doubted us, they kept showing up. Today, I carry their hopes into this room. We want our passengers to be safe, and we want honest drivers to be able to keep working with dignity. Our number one priority is enforcement.

When a passenger is cheated, that person suffers, and, and every honest driver loses trust. We're committed to work with city officials to protect passengers, stop scams, and hold dishonest operators accountable. Electricity matters deeply to us. We are not asking to go faster. We are asking for help. Carrying up to 3 people and pedaling for hours puts tremendous strain on our bodies.

In 2026, safe pedal assistance should not be a privilege. It should be a right for people doing this demanding work. We support clear safety standards. Please recognize the human being, the human being behind the pedals. We support transparent pricing. Accessible training and identification that helps passengers recognize licensed operators. Meters must be affordable and reliable. Fixed rates must reflect operating costs.

Drivers also need lawful places to rest and pick up passengers and meaningful relief from insurance costs. Please reconcile these proposals so SAFE Electric assists our independent status and and the removal of imprisonment are preserved under whichever agency regulates us. This decision will affect whether parents can keep working and families can pay their bills. We want reform that protects passengers and gives honest drivers a fair future.

Give working drivers a meaningful role in shaping these rules. NYPA is ready to do its part. Please work with us. Thank you.

Thank you. Go ahead, sir. Hi, good morning. Sorry, first time. Good morning. My name is Kenneth Winter. I am a 23-year veteran of the industry. I've been working this job for a very long time. I will admit that I do use an electric assist and that I did the first 15 years of my profession— I am also a licensed tour guide, by the way— but I did the first 15 years of my profession without one.

This has led to me developing neuropathy in my legs and some mobility issues, which also led to venous insufficiency, which makes it a little more difficult for me to operate my vehicle. But I am now a single father as of 2020. And due to the pandemic, which caused a lot of problems, a lot of the enforcement fell away, and it's made the industry more difficult to operate in.

So, but I need the electric assist because I need to be able to keep working. I can't be idealistic anymore like I used to be, and it's too late for me to make really a change in career. Anyway, this is what I am and what I do. I'm an ambassador for the City of New York, and I basically engage in teaching and also, I guess, hosting visitors to the City of New York and do my very best to show New York City in its best light.

Thank you. All I can do is hope that these hearings will bring a positivity— a positive change to the industry. Some of the issues that I've heard so far, I'm sure can be addressed, and I'm sure I speak for our organization when I say that we're very open and willing to be able to participate with all of the agencies involved in order to try to help them to reach our goals, which is better this industry and make it a part of the actual network of transportation in the city.

Thank you.

Thank you. Let me ask you a question. Why do you think the vast majority of people in this industry are unlicensed? And like, is there just a disincentive to get licensed? Are you asking me? Sure, if anyone can answer. Sorry, I apologize. I just want to make sure. Yeah, no, um, so, uh, I— you hit it on the nail earlier that there's no incentive for anyone to really try to, uh— when the pandemic happened, a lot of the enforcement fell away.

And so it made it more— people were encouraged by the fact that there was no enforcement to continue operating without a license and without insurance and without a lot of these other things that they're required to have. So on top of that, I sort of disagree with one of these CWP representatives about there being 6 insurance companies.

There's actually about 10. 2, 3 maximum. Uh, one of them has just started opening up to us, but, uh, the price of that insurance is exorbitant— $5,000 or higher per unit, uh, for a single year, which, uh, that's gone up about 90%. Uh, well, actually, 900%, actually. I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah, it's about 10 times more than what it used to be.

Uh, and, uh, so it's made it much more difficult for legal operators to be able to obtain this. But the fact that there was no enforcement also encouraged them to not bother to get those licenses. I had a driver come up to me and told me that he stopped getting the license and the insurance about 3 years ago because he saw that there was no consequence for it, so what's the point?

So people unlicensed, even if they're getting tickets, they're meaningless basically? Well, I think that there might be a disconnect sometimes between agencies in which they're One agency enforces a certain part and maybe it doesn't— the other agency doesn't really get that information in time. So you're saying NYPD doesn't do that kind of ticketing that's referenced? They do.

It's just kind of a little disparate sometimes in the way they do it. Yes, sir. And I think one of the problems is they're not coordinating things. As you just see from the, you know, DCWP, you know, all the questions you're asking them, pretty much our NYPD, they don't have— for the most part, they don't have an answer.

Because one of the first problems we just kind of— when we created NYPA is the coordinating. They're not coordinating. You ask NYPD, they say go to DCWP. You go to them, they say go to NYPD. And that's for 2 years now, we don't have an answer. And to go back to just what Kenny said about the insurance, about why these unlicensed things, you know, is there now, is before COVID pretty much the insurance was $600 for one unit, but now we're almost close to $6,000, and we don't know why.

We asked DCWP, no answer. We asked anybody, no answer. And now it keeps increasing, you know. And, and I'm not defending drivers or owners, but it could be one of the factors. Because before COVID 100%, everybody was pretty much, you know, everybody has a license. But then when you move from $600 almost 6,000, and that could be one of the problems.

You know, so yeah. I'd just like to add, in addition, that the consumer has no opportunity to help drive out the unlicensed drivers by identifying which cabs are safe to get in, right? There's really no way to identify on the street, and that seems like an inexpensive fix to make it very, very clear which cabs are licensed by this city. and which are not, and make it hard for cabs that look illegitimate to get riders, in addition to rightsizing the insurance, of course.

So do you think with more information on the street or through DCIPP or on the cab itself, people and consumers will be able to make better informed choices, or is it— they're still going to be able to just The unlicensed pedicabs are still going to be able to just say, well, you know, come us, we're cheaper, or like they're still going to incentivize people doing this.

Like, I'm not sure what's driving people to get into a licensing scheme if they can just operate and, you know, potentially defraud consumers, or even if they don't defraud them, charge them the same price. There's no incentive in the structure we have right now to license people. Sure. Right. I completely agree with you. I think this is a multi-pronged answer, which is why we put forth a report with a series of multi-part recommendations that attacks this from different angles.

But I do think that's one aspect of it. There could be a consumer education campaign around which pedicabs to get into, which not to get into, and to have plates that are legitimate looking and a barcode that actually is associates, the registration and the license of the person driving the cab. Right now, as Kenny and Makan shared, there is no information sharing between agencies, so there is no way to hold anybody accountable.

And consumer— like I said, consumers are just sort of taking their chances. Every agency that has participated in trying to do enforcement enforcement has done an excellent job within their own field. The problem is that because of that disconnect, sometimes the work of one agency is canceled out by another. And so because there is no real connectivity there.

Also, I should mention that a lot of the reason why a lot of these guys do this is because it's really the almighty dollar. It's become like the new gold rush. when it comes to the pedicab industry, because they tell other people to come down to New York City and do this. 65 million visitors, 42 million to the park, plenty of people you can rip off.

Some of the people that I've encountered on the street have been bragging about how much they make. They almost want to tell you how much they're making. And the reason why is because they can do these 15-, 20-minute rides and nail the customer and disappear. Thank you. disappear into the mist. These ripoffs don't really happen much in the park, although we've discovered there's a few bad actors in the park as well.

But the reason why is because the park is structured so it doesn't make sense for us to charge on these per-minute rates. So most of us, we charge flat fees. But the guys on the street, they're abusing the system given that, you know, they can charge whatever they want. It's a per-minute, per-ride thing. But no one's putting these signs on the sides of the bike, and when they are, They're very tiny, black on red, black on gray, very tiny little lettering, and they're deceptive.

Or they just simply pull out a rate card at the end of the ride. That's also part of the reason for the lights and sound. The lights and sound is to attract and then distract. They get you into the bike, looks like fun. You come to the end of the ride and all of a sudden it's per minute per person, $9 to $25 a minute per person.

You know? And this is part of the reason why I feel that a price cap might also help with that. A maximum rate that will allow the customer to eventually have consumer confidence again, knowing that they're not going to be charged more than this particular rate per ride. So you guys support the idea of a meter like a cab has where you would just say you get in and it's $5— I'm just making up a number— $5 to get in, but every minute after there's an additional cost?

Yes. I want to speak for the NYPA. Yes, we do support the price system that's going to You know, kind of because we want clarity. You know, as Kenny said, 80% or I said 90% of the people from NIPA are Central Park people. We 100%, we people know exactly how much they're going to pay because we agree on things.

You know what they want to do because for people who are familiar with Central Park, you know, small loop, you know, the you know lower loop, whatever. So we we we tell them exactly how it's going to be. Of food that I bought up. goals, you know, and that's why we created Nypa. That's what we want, want to work with good people.

Uh, so, and, and just to go back to, uh, the previous question about, uh, uh, why, you know, this problem licensed versus unlicensed thing, uh, one of the things is, uh, people who don't have, for example, were not licensed, and they're not, they're not, they're not afraid of anything. For example, if, for example, the NYPD sees your bike, with, you know, unlicensed bike and stuff like that, a couple of weeks, couple of days, you get your bike back.

So then, and they— because we know each other, you know, so people, they said, why would I bother to even do this while you guys are having license and you were doing the same thing? We're all— so we want— what we want as a NIPA, you know, we just make sure if somebody's bike being seized, you know, with fake plate or whatever, and there should be some type of laws or rules to make sure these people either they have to come with, you know, the right plate or something, or unless, you know, because otherwise they're going to keep doing whatever they're doing.

If they're going to give their bike back in 2 weeks or 3 weeks, it will go nowhere. Just to give you one more example, on July 8th of this year, they finally— I was finally targeted for the electric assist on my pedicabs. I happened to have both pedicabs with me because I rented a bike out to a movie.

I have a second pedicab that I never use. I only have it as a backup. And I rented it to the movie and I happened to pick it up that day from the movie set and I happened to have them both with me. It was around 11:00 p.m. that night. I was having some pizza on 54th Street and 7th Avenue and one of the units rolled up on me.

And despite— even though I was stopped earlier that day, by a different unit. I basically, every time that it happens, I gladly provide my license, provide my insurance certificate, I provide my inspection certificate that I have a copy of with me, a hard copy just in case, and provide them all that. And then basically they said to me, thank you very much for following the law, have a nice day.

But the second unit took me because of the electric assist. And because of this, even despite that I provided all of my information, everything else completely on par, they took my bike and I lost about 20 days of work, which was a major hardship for me because I'm a single father and I support not only my daughter but her grandparents who take care of her.

And so it's put me in a major position right now that I'm still trying to recuperate from. And so it's, you know, it's really hard for someone like myself who I do everything to make sure that when all my customers, it's always I agree, you agree, we go when it comes to pricing and when it comes to being completely transparent about everything that I do.

But for me to get hit in this manner is kind of really tough knowing that, you know, during the stop I saw 5 ripoff guys passing by with victims on their way to getting ripped off, and they seem to continue to operate.

So I know Councilmember Brewer has questions. One more just around the electric assist issue, because We've heard concerns. We had a hearing maybe last week, I think it was, on e-bikes and e-bike safety and the proliferation of the problems in the city. And so there's real resistance we've heard from DOT by allowing more bikes to have electric assist.

You know, how do we respond to those safety concerns if we allow electric assist in this industry? Well, okay. To answer, Kenny is going to go ahead after you. So really, us, for example, for us people that work in the park, for us it's really more of a torque thing, more an assistance. There's not a real speed issue going on with pedicabs when it comes to Central Park, for example.

The only thing that I'm concerned about when it comes to people driving a pedicab with an electric system is that, again, some of the— most of the guys that are in the Midtown area, Times Square area, you know, over by Empire State Building and so on. They do a lot of these donuts on the thing. Now, the industry has been around for 32 years.

We've never had a fatality caused by a pedicab. Okay? We have a perfect safety record when it comes to that. The only time there's ever been a tragedy was caused by a reckless driver on 42nd Street, and that had nothing to do with the driver's operation of the vehicle. I think that the $7.50 thing would be perfect because, I mean, really, it's really more about torque, not really about, uh, speed.

Um, at least my maximum speed has been 14 miles an hour, and that's me trying really hard to do it. Uh, our average speed in Central Park, for example, is anywhere from 6 to 10 miles an hour. Uh, and so, uh, because we're doing tours, you know. Uh, right. And yeah, and as just Kenny said, we, we're not looking for speed, you know.

Um, again, we do a tour. People want to see things. And so our concern now is not about 15, 20 miles per hour. If you can even go 5 miles per hour, that would be fine. Because people pay a lot of money to come to New York. They want to see things. And we have people here like 67 years old, 60 years old.

They're not looking for speed. They just need help. Because if you have to pull 3 people— And again, you know, most major cities now in everywhere, Asia, Africa, Europe, they have electric assist except New York City, which is the best city in the world, and they still not allowing us to use that. And, and that's kind of something need to be changed.

All of the bikes have it, or nearly all the bikes already have it, and all that's happening is people like Kenny are having their bikes confiscated, having their lives impacted, but it doesn't actually change whether or not the drivers are driving with pedal assist. Thank you. Councilmember Brewer.

Thank you for that question. For whatever reason, the good news is that the pedicabs have not had fires in your apartments due to batteries, and that's been mostly individuals. What's the reason for that? I mean, I don't think you've had any because you don't bring the pedicab home. So go ahead, explain. So, um, I know it's probably going to sound like I'm deriding them and stuff, but I— it's Yeah.

It's a hard truth. A lot of the guys that work the street, they are, again, their number one thing is to get out there and work as long as possible. And they basically sometimes, you know, abuse their equipment. And so what they care about is basically charging that battery as fast as possible. And very often they basically plug the batteries into the same outlets.

They have very unsafe practices sometimes. And, uh, or the batteries are, you know, defective, or they buy a cheaper battery because it's about cost, you know. So nobody really does their research, uh, when it comes to this thing. So this is part of the reason why some of the fires happened. Wow. A lot of these things have been addressed, uh, and garages don't really allow anybody to charge their batteries in the garages anymore.

No one will do it. So, um, but, uh, why has it happened in somebody's home? I have no idea. It's probably because of that very same reason. They find started to wake up and do the right thing. I think if we work on the industry as a whole, then licensing batteries will be the correct battery. That's also part of the— UL certification really goes a long way with that, right?

You know, I personally have never ever had an incident because I do my research and make sure that what I buy is high quality, to make sure that I'm never gonna have that issue, because I never want to have my name attached to something like that, which is part of— was something that I was concerned concerned about when my bikes were actually confiscated.

When the officers took my bikes, the batteries were still connected, and I was really worried that when they ended up at 41st Street, they have a lot there where they keep the bikes, that they would react with the rain because I don't ride in the rain. I don't work the street. So they— I was worried that, you know, it was going to rain that weekend, and I was worried that it was going to have a reaction as it did on 48th Street.

There was a fire on 48th Street in an open-air lot, someone left a defective battery in the rain, which reacted and then caused a major problem there. Thank you. And one more thing to just add to what Kenny said. You know, outside right here, we have like a place where they're charging a bunch of, you know, batteries and stuff.

I think this thing, this issue, this is not to us, it's not even an issue. We're okay as a NIPA, you know, our perspective, whatever the safety measures are available, we'll use Because our concern is pretty much the safety because we're all family members and stuff like that. We care deeply about that. So we're open to anything, you know, in order to make sure everybody is safe.

One quick question for Michelle. How could the city effectively enforce pedicab laws without relying on criminal summonses? You talked about that a little bit. If you could expand. Sure. I think ideally it would be under TLC. They would have street-level enforcement that's Civil in nature. They could give tickets for the top charges that I named, like having a, you know, taillight out, and it would be tied to the owner of the cab.

It would be tied to the pedicab license. It would be an industry issue as opposed to a criminal one. Okay. Do all of you support moving the industry to TLC? Is that a general positive reaction? Yes. We, as I said from my speech, we are open to work with any agency, but at the same time, you know, our members just want more information about TLC, you know, like, you know, because there are a few questions that our members are asking, and then we want to make sure about those.

Like, for example, the fitness requirement in the bill and the fact that the TLC also might be able to kind of increase the insurance. So there are a couple of questions that we want to make sure, and we don't have answers to, you know, to give to our members. We want to make sure we got all the answers.

But we 100% want to work with any agency to make sure, you know, the enforcement is there and then the public, you know, everybody is safe. We're open to any solutions as long as they don't have a double-edged sword effect, you know, unintended consequences that's going to negatively affect our members. So long as it's moving forward in a positive way and constructive, we are definitely open to pretty much anything.

Thank you very much, and thank you for your service. Thank you. Thank you for this panel. And the next panel is— thank you— David Satinstahl, Tom Harris, and Christine Nichols. Vote? Committee vote today? Thanks. Do you have copies? Whenever you are ready, you can start. Yeah, go ahead. Thank you.

Good morning, Chair Epstein and members of the Committee on Consumer and Worker Protection. My name is Christine Nicholas. I am the chair of the 115-year-old New York City business institution, the Broadway Association, dedicated to the betterment of the Broadway corridor from 14th Street up to Columbus Circle, encompassing Times Square and the theater district. First off, I wanted to just say that I am not personally opposed to the pedicab industry.

I have used pedicabs because I am the mom of 3 kids that have insisted on using the pedicabs every now and then. Thank you for your understanding and your interest in fixing the pedicab industry that operates without clear regulations. Obviously, from the testimony, the majority of which are unlicensed, creating safety risks for passengers and pedestrians, an unsafe environment for the city's busiest areas, Broadway and Times Square.

And for consumers, especially tourists, the vague pricing has made ripoffs and overcharging a common occurrence, no repercussions. The 7 bills under consideration represent common-sense solutions agreed upon by the industry advocates, the Midtown Bid Coalition and the Midtown Community Justice Center. Having 7 separate bills is affirmation that this industry is in desperate need of reform, yet 7 separate bills are also confusing to the public, and we urge the City Council to simplify this process and consolidate these bills to pass a law that promotes safety, transparency, accountability, and fairness to all of those affected and involved.

Regarding the specific legislation under consideration today, the Broadway Association supports Intro 992, Intro 0673, and Intro 0077 to standardize rates and mandate meters requiring visible pricing, scannable registration plates with information about the pedicab business owner, and prohibiting amplified sound. The Broadway Association supports Interim 993, moving oversight and DCWP to the TLC, which could fix the broken link between licensing and enforcement, and Interim 1026 to designate curb space.

Just in closing, the bills under consideration underscore the need for immediate action, but like any rules, any new rules or laws, they are only as good as the enforcement required put them into effect. We strongly suggest that if the TLC is successful in getting oversight, although it doesn't sound like they want it, we also urge that the 24/7 NYPD remain involved in enforcing unlawful and dangerous behavior that has made Midtown seem chaotic and ungovernable.

The Broadway Association thanks the Chair and Councilwoman Gelber and the committee for making this a priority.

Yeah, whoever's next, whatever, you guys can just decide. Good morning, members of the committee. My name is David Saltonstall, and I'm Vice President of Government Relations and Policy at the Central Park Conservancy, and thank you for this opportunity. The Conservancy supports this package of bills to reform the city's pedicab fleet. Moving oversight to the TLC, requiring meters or timers in every pedicab, And making it possible to weed out bad actors are common-sense steps.

But rather than walking through each bill, I want to describe what the current system looks like from our perspective. Central Park is the city's most visited attraction, with more than 40 million visits a year. And virtually every visitor from out of town is solicited, often aggressively, by a small subset of pedicab operators or their agents within a few blocks of the park.

Not some of them, nearly all of them. For many, it's confusing, and too often it ends with a sky-high fare that was never made clear. A family told one price at the outset and charged several times that amount at the end of the ride. Grand Army Plaza and Columbus Circle were designed as grand entrances to one of the world's most iconic green spaces.

Instead, those areas feel more like a shakedown. That's the first impression many visitors get of Central Park, and it's a memory they take home. It reflects on the park, and it reflects on New York. And it doesn't have to be this way. Pedicabs can be a safe, green, and genuinely enjoyable way to see the park. What we need is a well-regulated fleet, one that rewards the many honest drivers who are simply trying to make a living, and some of whom you've heard from today, and rids the industry of those whose business model depends on exploiting people who don't know better.

A properly regulated fleet under the TLC can also be managed so it has minimal impact on the park's already crowded drives, which are shared by cyclists, runners, and millions of others. Finally, I do want to recognize the New York Pedicab Alliance, whose members have spoken here today. I imagine it is a rare event where when this body is asked to regulate an industry, when the members of that industry come up and are literally begging you for more reform, for more oversight.

They welcome it because they know it protects their livelihoods as much as it protects the public. So we urge the Council to pass this package in its entirety, and I would be happy to answer any questions.

Thank you. Go ahead. Good morning. My name is Tom Harris, President of the Times Square Alliance. I want to thank Chairman Epstein, Councilmember Brewer, members of the committee, and members of the council for helping to make the pedicab industry work for all. A pedicab ride can be a nice way to see our great city, or it can be a noisy experience that ends with a huge unexpected cost.

The choice is ours. For far too long, the pedicab industry has not worked for the community, for the consumers, and we found out for most of the honest drivers themselves. Most of them are honest, like Kenny and Makan. They're just working people looking to make a living. Those honest workers are overshadowed by another group who flouts the laws and takes advantage of consumers.

First, let's look at what a pedicab— what pedicabs do. Pedicabs pick people up, take them somewhere, and charge them money. The very definition of a vehicle for hire. But for reasons most of us can't remember, they're not regulated by the Taxi and Limousine Commission, the entity that regulates vehicles for hire and does a great job. Right now, DCWP licenses the pedicabs.

The NYPD enforces the laws through a mix of civil and ineffective criminal court summonses, most of which are dismissed. There's no connection between the summons and the licenses, no accountability for owners of the pedicabs, and bad actors, making it difficult for good actors to remain compliant and still make a living. In partnership with the Pedicab Alliance, the Central Park Conservancy, the Midtown Justice Center, and the Times Square Alliance, we developed recommendations reflected in this legislation that will treat pedicabs like other vehicles for hire, with fixed fares, meters, visible identification, civil penalties attached to licenses, a prohibition for amplified jurisdiction of the TLC, with a strong recommendation to increase the staffing of the TLC.

There's been a lot of talk about resources. A great deal of resources are currently dedicated to enforcing pedicab laws. They're just ineffective and put in the wrong place. We also support pedicabs being allowed to have electric assist power. Other cities have been able to regulate pedicabs. There's no reason New York City, the greatest city in the world, in the world can't do the same thing.

Once again, thank you.

Thank you. And I want to acknowledge that we've been joined by Councilmember Krishnan. And Councilmember Brewer, I'll let you go first this time.

My question is, given the fact that you know better than anybody else perhaps what the challenges are, of the possibilities for the future with the Taxi and Limousine Commission, if we're able to pull that off, how specifically would you suggest we get some of these individuals licensed? In other words, you have the bills in front of you, but you know more than I think most of us about what you might be more specific about how to make the industry better in the hopes, too, that TLC takes over.

But that's not the— there's many steps. that would have to be included. I was wondering if you could suggest some of them. Sure. So the first thing is the New York City Police Department does a great job. They're utility players, and they're expected to enforce all sorts of laws. Criminal court summonses are their forte. That's not the place where these summonses should be heard.

First off, when you issue a criminal court summons, discovery kicks in, there's jail time applied. We shouldn't be sending people to jail for, for doing their work. So, so the problem is that these summonses are dismissed because the police cannot comply with the discovery components for an offense that requires jail time. So anything that they do for unlicensed drivers is ineffective because, like Kenny and Mekhan said, A couple of days later, they get back their pedicab.

If this was regulated civilly, and whoever regulates it civilly, it could be a combination, but if the police department or the TLC or any other agency issued a civil summons that was— and had accountability built into it, they could seize the pedicab for an unlicensed operator. They would be found guilty because the discovery, or the standard of proof is different than in the criminal court, and you would be able to seize that summons.

So, in my opinion, that would bring compliance in line, because you, you have accountability. Right now, there's zero accountability for any of the summonses issued, and that's why the enforcement to date has been ineffective. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

Kenny, so, um, do you honestly— do you think moving this to TLC will resolve this problem? Because I'm worried honestly that TLC will be in the same place that we are in 3 years from now. If TLC is doing enforcement, they'll issue tickets and we'll still have the same— well, we might be having the same conversation in 3 years.

Well, I hope not. Um, but what I would say is the TLC is the perfect agency because everything's under one umbrella. They issue the licenses, they do the enforcement, and there's a direct accountability between the enforcement and the violation and the license. So just think about it this way, and it would be my hope that in 2 years we have zero summonses being issued because there's clear rules, there's accountability for violations, and we bring all of those people into the fold.

TLC, we talked a little bit about insurance. They also have programs to defray the cost of insurance for taxi operators, so that could help the pedicab industry be more compliant. So, you know, again, I think TLC was made to enforce pedicabs. We just need to give them the resources. Or, like, I think about the approach when— and Councilmember member Brewer remembers well, the unlicensed smoke shops and weed shops.

It was a combination of the civil and the criminal teams that went out and addressed that. The Sheriff's Office took the lead, the police department enforced, and you were able to get rid of those problems. The same could happen here. TLC could take the lead with police support. You could have small task forces with very few TLC peace officers And you would clean up the industry quickly.

Yeah. All right. Thank you. No further questions. This panel is dismissed. Thank you. Sorry. The next panel is Adumo Matsudu, Hashem Mohammed, and Justin. Galbraith. And whoever can— anyone can go first.

It's— Good morning, Chair Epstein and members of the committee. My name is Justin Galbraith. I started Fire Island Pedicab in 2019. I've worked with 3-seat and 6-seat cabs, carried passengers and luggage, and dealt with the daily work of keeping a fleet running. I've also taken a pedicab in Manhattan where the driver recklessly blasted music. I understand why people want changes, but the answer should be a service people can use and trust.

I'm asking you to focus on 2 practical solutions. First, hold the operator accountable for the whole ride. A company should answer for its drivers. Thank you. maintenance, insurance, and complaints. Drivers need hands-on training and clear rules for safe driving— sorry. You don't have to touch it. Okay. Safe driving and loading. Company training should work alongside city licensing.

Uniforming— uniforms and matching cabs help passengers recognize a service, but they do not replace inspections visible identification or enforcement. Second, make the price understandable before the passenger gets in. I favor studying distance-based fares because passengers know where they want to go. But the rate has to cover real costs, and the passengers still need a visible approved fare system and a receipt.

I am not proposing a dollar amount today, Until the law changes, operations must follow the existing fare rules. The photos on page 1 and 2 show the equipment we use on Fire Island. A larger cab can keep a group together. That does not provide it's safe for Manhattan or that it reduces traffic. 6-seat vehicles need separate legal approval and testing for braking, turning, boarding, and loading weight.

Electric assist needs enforceable limits. My longer-term idea is one company managing the whole fleet. My request today is a staff meeting with the responsible agencies and existing operators to define a small legally authorized pilot. Agree on the vehicles, prices, and loading locations before it starts. Track injuries, complaints, curb conflicts, and driver earnings. Use the results. to decide what deserves to grow.

You finished. All right. Thank you. Go ahead, sir.

Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Hisham Mahmoud. I am a committee member of New York Bid Cab Alliance. I've been— New York is my home for the last 40 years. I have worked as a bed cab driver since 2017. I am 67 years old. I love my job. I love meeting people who come from around the world to see New York.

I get to show them the city that became my home and help them live With a good memories. This work is how I support myself and my family for many, many years. It is what I have known and what I have relied on. I have mentioned very. I have maintained a very clean driver driving record, and I take my respons.

Responsibility for my passengers seriously. But today I have to tell you something that is difficult to admit. It is very hard to do this work the way I used to. I still want to work. I still know the city. I still know how to welcome my passengers and take care of them. But when I have to battle people uphill or keep going for many hours, my body cannot always keep up with my willingness.

It is hard to love, to love your work and feel yourself becoming unable to do it. This is why I asking you to support the the electric assist. Thank you, everyone. Good morning, Chair, member of City Council. My name is Adamu Mazaru. I am 53 years old, originally from Niger, and I live in the Bronx. I have worked as a pedicab driver for 10— for almost 10 years.

As an immigrant, this job is my American dream. It's all— it's allowed me to earn an honest living, support myself, and maintain my independence. I am here today to ask you to support the bill to legalize the pedal-assist pedicab, Intro 1063. For me, this is not just about a bicycle or piece of, piece of equipment. It is all about being able to continue to doing the work I rely on for almost 10 decades.

I have arthritis in my both knees. Every day I work, I feel the pain and physical strain, but I do not want to stop working. I still want to get up Each morning, go to work and support myself with dignity. Pedal assist will give me a little help when my knees cannot do everything I ask of them.

I'm not looking for speed. I am asking for help to get through my working day. And I know I am not alone. Other pedicab drivers are facing similar physical challenges. We went to work. We went to welcome our visitors and contribute to our city. We are not asking for a handout. We are asking for fair opportunity to keep working.

At 53, at 53 years old, I still have the desire to work, but my body needs some help. It is difficult to feel that pain with knowing how much you depend on this job. When you consider this bill, please thinking about people like me. Think about what it means to have work. You are proud of, and to worry that your body may be no longer allow you to do it.

Please support this bill so we can keep earning and honest living with dignity and safely. For almost ten years, this job has been my American dream. Please help me keep that dream alive. Thank you for listening, and thank you for your service to our community.

Thank you. Thank you.

Just to you all in the industry, do you all think that moving this authority to TLC will get rid of the illegal actors on the street? No. No, I don't think TLC wants to do it anyway. I think it needs to be one company, Harvey. It really does. It needs to be one company that takes over the whole industry and has its own fleet, pays the drivers, gives the drivers benefits.

Make it like the MTA. Make it like a transportation service through New York. The park may be a little different, but But on the street, it could be a really great thing for Manhattan to have pedicabs and 6-seaters. We really need the 6-seaters because that moves more people. And then you have control. You have the control of the safety.

You have control of the insurance. You have control of basically the maintenance. The batteries— I've got 25 batteries. How long do they last? You know, I have a building that I charge them in on Long Island. Yeah. I hear you. I hear you. Yeah. So I understand how to run this business and I understand how it would work in Manhattan.

And it would eliminate everybody because if all the cabs were the same and all the drivers were wearing the same uniforms and everything looked the same, then somebody that comes in from out of town or even a New Yorker, It would— and social media, of course— would blow it up to the point where everybody knows that that's the cab for Manhattan.

So anybody else that's riding around with something that's not— that doesn't look like ours, the cops can take them right off the street. And then that's how you get rid of the bad actors. How about you 2 gentlemen? Do you want to respond to kind of the question about moving it to TLC? Is that going to change it?

responding to his comment about centralizing the system? We are open to any agency that can enforce the laws and the rules— TLC, police department, the Department of Consumer Affairs. and worker protections are doing a very good job but need more enforcement. Thank you. Anything else, sir, did you want to add? Actually, we are— as I say, my colleagues say, we are open to any agency can help us to fix our industry.

Great. Thank you. Councilmember Brewer? Thank you. Thank you for this panel. I'm going to bring up the next panel. Max. Oh, and we can someone from staff here can get you connected to DCWP if you want a meeting. I know you requested that. Yeah, we can afterwards they can just give you contact information to to meet with them.

Max Weissfeld, Keenan Delancey, and Amadou Kasinu. What's it? It will be done. Whenever you're ready, sir, you can just begin. And if anyone else wants to testify, they should sign up to testify. We are getting towards the end of this, so. If you're interested in testifying, please fill out one of the cards. Go ahead.

My name is Kenandu Zanli. I have been working as a pedicab driver on the streets since 2007. I am here to strongly support Intro 126 to create dedicated relief stations. stands. Over the 19 years, I've been firsthand why this infrastructure is desperately needed, not, not just for the drivers but for the entire city, especially in our busiest touristic places like Midtown and Times Square.

First, this bill protects customer parking and meter revenue in high-demand areas. Currently, without designated zones, pedicab safety take-up standard metered spaces while waiting for fares. By putting pedicabs strictly in designated curb spaces, the city gets functional commercial staging around Times Square. Second, it reduces mid-street traffic. When we don't have a dedicated pull-off spot in heavy Midtown traffic, drivers are forced to double park in the active lanes just to load and unload passengers.

Marked designated curb space gets our pedicabs completely out of the traffic flow, instantly preventing gridlock behind us. Third, Intro 1026 eliminates pedestrian conflict in heavily foot traffic places. Operators without official stands often have to idle near crosswalks or cluster near hotel doors. Dedicated stands confine operators to a predictable footprint. Fourth, this is an exceptional low-cost fix. It only requires painting and signing on the curb to immediately clear up congested intersections in the heart of the city.

Finally, these zones will significantly streamline enforcement. Right now, citing drivers for blocking the roadway creates legal gray areas. With explicit designated spaces, enforcement officers will have clear-cut boundaries. If an operator is idling outside the stand, it's an automatic enforceable citation. Intro 1020 creates a safer, more predictable cityscape for everyone visiting Midtown while giving hardworking drivers a legal place Thank you for your time.

Thank you. Go ahead, sir.

Good morning, everyone. Good morning, Your Honor. Thanks, City Council, for giving us a chance to speak. My name is Amadou Kasimu, and I've been a pedicab driver since 2006. I'm a father of 3 teenagers, all born here, and that was my only job. I've been working hard daily. to maintain my family. We used to do that like 10 years ago with that pedal assist, which is a really, really tough job to do.

Carrying 3 people on a bike makes the back like back pain. We're all exhausted. And today with the age up to 50, and that was my— that's actually my only job. I don't see myself pedaling a bike, no assistance. The body is tired and we really need the job. So I really strongly believe that if you guys decide to help us to legalize it, it will definitely keep us in our job to keep taking care of our family.

That's the first point I wanted to speak about. And to fix this industry, to be honest with you, I strongly believe that the drivers need also About electric assist insurance, they need training. There's people that goes to the job; they don't go to any training. That's one thing that people forget to speak about. The training is very important.

Anybody that rented or give the bike to any other person, he need to train him the rules and the consequences of all the bad thing he's going to commit. And the third point is just. Neither WCWP, TLC, any one of them that take the lead of this company or any other organization. To be honest with you, they have to have a uniform price.

It has to be visible, seriously visible for anyone, not only the tourists. It has to be displayed for everyone to know about the price and to maintain the safety of the city. that everybody is coming to enjoy. Thank you so much.

Thank you. No further— no questions for this panel. Thank you very much for being with us today. We appreciate your testimony. Thank you so much, sir. Thank you. Thanks. And the last panel we have, if people want to testify, sign up, please do that. We have Christina Hendon and Paul Bader. Thank you. Yeah, and there are people on Zoom.

We'll go to those after, but at this point we don't have anybody on Zoom who signed up, right? We have one person. Okay, we do have one person on Zoom. Thank you.

All right, good afternoon, Councilman Epstein, Councilman Brewer, everybody watching remotely. My name is Christina Hanson. I am a New York City. I'm a longtime resident of Hell's Kitchen. So I have been an observer of the pedicab industry for a long, long time, as it's immediately adjacent to my line of work and in my neighborhood. And I would like to say, first of all, I agree with the Conservancy very much about their observations about what goes on in the park.

Central Park South has become utterly degraded with aggressive ticket selling and things like that. I would like to say, first of all, I agree with the Conservancy very much about their observations about what goes on in Also, the park. Central Park South has become utterly degraded with aggressive ticket selling and things like that. though, there are a lot of good operators in the park, and right now with everything else that's going on in the park, they do operate safely and slowly at 6 to 10 miles an hour.

They're not going 15 miles an hour. They're not going 30 miles an hour with that electric assist, which although it is currently illegal. That being said, I heard a lot of questions from the committee to the administration about what sort of technology could we employ Right. And the technology that's not being employed here is a very simple one, and it's called a license plate.

They talk about plates on pedicabs, but it is just a sticker on the fork of the vehicle that— it's a sticker, and if it peels off, it's voided. So the pedicab operators are kind of forced to put zip ties around it so nobody could peel it off and ruin their plate. You can't read it. It's a 4-digit number.

They're easily counterfeitable, etc. They can be covered up. If there's only 840 plates out there and only 340 being issued right now, it's a 3-digit number that could be visible from the back of the pedicab and from the front of the pedicab. Yellow cabs right now have a light on the top. It's like a very short number.

They've got a plate from TLC. If they do have a violation, it's easy to find them. easy to capture that and connect it to an owner. So, you know, in the park, I've had pedicabs drive recklessly, hit my horse in the face, but I cannot report it because there's just no way to even see it. So, um, I was— that would be my suggestion to the, to the committee.

Thank you. Go ahead, sir.

Thank you. Good afternoon. My name is Paul Bader. I'm the TLC Commission representing Queens County, and I welcome this to speak about some of these pieces of proposed legislation. The one that is most important I'm not going to address, which is whether or not it should be transferred to us. I do know that the pedicab industry right now operating out there is like the wild, wild west, and certainly there needs to be controls put on them regardless of who the administrative and overseeing regulatory body is.

My concern, though, relative to the transference to the TLC is a fiscal one. We have had our budget cut substantially in the last fiscal year, which represented a decline in about 64 police officers who work for the TLC that does enforcement. So therefore, to ask us to additionally take on a new responsibility, which would— which we understand is all about enforcement, Because parenthetically, let me say that the people I've spoken to, police officers who represent and have worked in Midtown North, and this is a regulatory issue that they would rather not get involved with.

So that's another reason why it's as wild out there as it needs to be. So all of these issues to control that, putting prices on, making the licenses more visible, of course, is part of it. But the financial one is my concern. But I have also been aware of the fact, I understand that they're separated, is that there was a substantial amount of money put aside over 5 years, about $73 million put aside for— to this bureau that you oversee relative to the implementation and enforcement of a proposed law relative to the decertification of— that was being done by taxi drivers. by Lyft and by Uber, and that law was turned down.

The courts— it was challenged by Uber. The city lost. And so therefore, that law, unfortunately, which I was a big supporter of, did not go into effect. But we are hoping that a version of that does. But the question is that there was money put aside in the budget of $73 million over 5 years for the enforcement of that.

So I would like to ask if it's possible for some of that money, if this change occurs, that some of that money be reapportioned to the TLC so that we can do whatever job would need to be done relative to regulation. Thank you.

Yeah, obviously if the duties were moved over to the TLC, we would have to talk about a budgetary component of that, and something that we talked earlier to both TLC and DCWP about.

Councilmember Brewer? All right. I don't think we have any questions for this panel, so thank you both for being here and testifying, and I appreciate your comments. Really helpful. I'm going to move on to the Zoom panel. We have Kristen March Sona, Matthew Sona, and Stephen Stallman. If you are available, you can start your testimony. You get to unmute yourself, please.

Yes, this is Kristen March Sona. I was given the option. To unmute, so I'm just assuming I can go. Yeah, go ahead, please. Thank you. Good morning, Chair and members of council. I'm here to represent ExcluCycle. We are a pedicab-specific ride-hailing app, and these problems honestly have been nationwide and industry-wide. We've seen the increase of these pricing problems for, I would say, maybe like around a year.

Or so with this per person, per minute, and, you know, a lot of bad actors in the industry. So our goal was to increase trust and compliance. We have a vetting system, we have a rating system built in, and we have the goal of eliminating basically these predatory behaviors that are going on. So we think that we can solve a lot of these industry problems.

We also have a— basically an app on the passenger side where they would see the rate before they commit. They would see the elapsed time and the accumulating fare. And so we're here to ask for an approval pathway and an allowance for a software-based metering system that would be on a passenger handheld device in addition to this bike-mounted meter system.

And again, we're open to, again, helping the industry in any way possible, but we would like for that particular allowance to hopefully be written in as well, because now we can give kind of an industry standard again across whether there's an independent driver, like, that's been doing this for 20 or 40 years, like some of these panel members that we've heard, or even a fleet owner.

We could give, you know, some kind of standardization, right? Some kind of recognized brand across this industry. It doesn't have to be completely controlled by one company. We don't believe that, but we would like to give the consumers also access from someplace— Time's expired. The Broadway tour, the Broadway theaters, right? Now they don't have to be out there standing on the street side to find a pedicab.

Thank you very much. And the other people online are Are they— I know you do, but there's no one else online.

Okay, I'm going to turn it over to Councilmember Brewer. Thank you.

In your national experience, how are, um, companies, individuals dealing with the insurance industry problem of cost? Yeah, uh, the insurance has really hit the industry hard. Um, I, I do know— I mean, there are insured people who are ripping people off too, and I think that's, uh, what one of the things that started happening post-COVID, just maybe 3 years ago around there, was that the insurance company started calling us and trying to ask how much money people were making.

And like the other guy had shared, you know, these, these people that are ripping everyone off, they, you know, they just want to brag, not just to the industry, they'll tell their customers, you know, how much they're making. So I think what happened was that These people who were ripping people off started telling the insurance companies, oh yeah, hey, we're making this much money.

And so now they're like, hey, we want our piece. And so that was when we really started seeing these increases, and they're anywhere upwards of, I've heard, even like $8,000 per unit per year. So yes, what he's saying is accurate. I think you guys said something about if it was transferred to TLC, They could have some kind of deter— they could defer the cost of their insurance.

So people— and in New York, New York is also one of the hardest places to insure. So I don't know all the ins and outs of that, but I do know that, like, for my insurance, because I am an owner-operator as well, and then not in New York, but I have worked there in the past. So I kind of know some of these problems, but I have to sign a thing saying I don't operate, um, in New York just to get my insurance.

So again, it is very complex there. I'm not sure of all of the insurance, um, issues there, but industry-wide, I can speak for that. Thank you very much.

Yeah. Thank you very much for testifying today, and I think there's no more people on Zoom and no one else in person. So hearing no one else, um, this hearing is now adjourned.