Committee on Criminal Justice

Good morning. Welcome to the Committee on Criminal Justice. Please place your phone on vibrate or silent mode. At any time during this hearing, do not approach the dais. Chair Brooke Powers, we are ready to begin. Good morning.

I am Councilmember Sylvina Brooks Powers, Chair of the Committee on Criminal Justice. I want to welcome everyone to today's hearing on the organizational strategy of the Department of Probation. The Department of Probation plays an important role in New York City's criminal legal system. Its responsibilities extend beyond supervising individuals in, in the community to include court-related investigations, juvenile intake and adjustment, and connecting people under supervision with services that support their stability and successful completion of probation.

The department's organizational approach affects how these responsibilities are carried out. How officers interact with the people they supervise. What the outcomes are for people under department supervision, and how effectively young people and families navigate the court system. In recent years, the department has faced significant challenges related to staffing shortages, employee retention, caseload management, and the direction of its supervision policies.

As of March, the department reported a vacancy rate of approximately 23%. 255 vacancies, 210 of which were probation officers. The elimination of court liaison officer positions under the previous administration raised concerns about coordination with family court and the ability to identify opportunities for adjustment before young people enter formal court proceedings. The return of court liaison functions, along with changes to caseload assignments and staff requirement efforts, makes it important to examine how the department is organized today and how these decisions affect the agency's work.

The department has been under new leadership since Commissioner Goodwin's appointment in January. Today's hearing is an opportunity to hear directly from the department about the change that leadership has brought, what remains in development, and how those changes are impacting probation officers and those under their supervision. As we examine the department's organizational strategy, we must consider both the conditions facing probation officers and the experiences of the people under their supervision.

Effective probation requires trained and supported staff, manageable and appropriately structured caseloads, coordination with the courts, and access to services that address the needs contributing to justice system involvement. Today, the committee will examine the department's current staffing and management practices, its approaches to assigning and supervising cases, and the role of the community-based programs in supporting successful outcomes. We will also consider how the department evaluates program effectiveness and uses available data to guide decisions about services and resources.

In addition to today's topic, the committee will be hearing Introduction Number 1104, sponsored by myself, in relation to providing youth accused of crimes with information about the criminal legal process. This bill would require the Department of Probation to provide young people accused of crimes with notices explaining the criminal legal process. These notices would provide information on addressing cases, Filing petitions, pre-sentencing reports, and potential dispositions.

The notices would also provide information regarding different criminal defense providers in New York City that the young person may contact. The bill would also require that before beginning an intake interview with a probation officer, a young person be read the protections afforded them during the interview. Young people and families should understand how this process works before they begin it.

A notice delivered at first contact would give them the information they need to make informed decisions, and I look forward to working with the department and our stakeholders to get it right. I am joined by Councilmember Marrano, and I would also like to take a moment to thank my staff and committee staff for their hard work. Jahari Frazier, counsel to the committee; Chad Benjamin, policy analyst; Casey Lasky, financial analyst; Owen Brady, my policy and budget director; and Renee Taylor, my chief of staff.

I look forward to a productive discussion with the department and our other stakeholders about the direction of probation in New York City, the progress being made to strengthen its operations, and the steps needed to ensure that the department carries out its responsibilities effectively while supporting rehabilitation, accountability, and successful outcomes for the people it serves.

Now I would like to ask the committee counsel to administer the oath. Good morning. We will now hear testimony from the administration. Before we begin, I will administer the affirmation. Panelists, please raise your right hand. Do you affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth before this committee and to honestly answer councilmember questions.

All right. You may begin when ready.

Good morning, Chair Brooks-Powers and members of the Criminal Justice Committee. I am Sharron Goodwin, Commissioner of the New York City Department of Probation. Seated with me today is First Deputy Deputy Commissioner Robert Eusebio, and Deputy Commissioners Wayne McKenzie, Tina Ruggeri, and Stacy Decimor, who oversee Legal and External Affairs, Adult Operations, and Juvenile Operations, respectively. Thank you for the opportunity to testify about the important work of the Department of Probation and its organizational strategy.

The Department of Probation's organizational strategy can be summed up in just 2 words: what works. Referred to in the field as evidence-based practice, it is a return to our core values, a return to working with people and the larger community to help the clients get out and stay out of the justice system. My entire career has been with New York City Probation. 40 years ago, I started as an intern fresh out of Utica College, now Utica University, my alma mater.

I have held nearly every position in the probation officer title series, including probation officer trainee, probation officer, court liaison officer, supervising probation officer, branch chief, assistant commissioner, deputy commissioner, and now commissioner. Restoring the agency to its fundamentals, to what works, has been my core focus. Today I will provide an update on some of the best practices implemented thus far: staffing and recruitment, right-sizing caseloads, and rebuilding relationships.

Without question, probation's most important asset is its people. We cannot do this work without quality, experienced staff. For the past 3 years, probation had the highest vacancy rate of any city agency, 23%. Thankfully, we are beginning to see results from our staffing and recruitment focus as our vacancy rate has decreased 8%. This has had a marked impact on staff morale and workload. and ultimately the resources and attention available for the people we serve.

Here's how we got there. Probation officers are one of the most highly educated and credentialed civil service titles in New York City government. The PO title series requires a bachelor's degree and 2 years of casework experience. To hire college graduates, who do not have yet the casework experience, like I didn't when I first started, we reinstituted the probation officer trainee title.

This additional civil service title meets the field requirements while on the job, allowing us to hire and train more officers more quickly. The next probation officer trainee exam will be open for filing November 5th, through the 25th, 2026. Our probation training academy has been strategically optimized from 5.1 months to 3.5 months while maintaining compliance with the New York State training mandates and regulatory requirements.

So far this year, we have conducted 2 probation academies, graduating 57 officers, with roughly another 50 candidates expected to graduate in December. In total, this amounts to almost 100 more officers joining the Department of Probation family in 2026 when we need them the most. Combined with 4 additional academies scheduled to be completed in 2027, my hope is that we will be almost fully staffed by the end of next year.

I just want to take a moment to thank you, Chair Brooks-Powers, for your commitment to our offices. Too often the work of probation goes unnoticed. Since becoming— go unnoticed. Since becoming chair, you have not only attended both academy graduations but even joined our agency to celebrate Probation Week. Thank you for seeing and celebrating the hard work and dedication of this small but mighty agency and its people.

With staffing and hiring trending positively, we could now return to another evidence-based practice, assigning caseloads according to risk and— or right-sizing caseloads. Clients who engage in higher-risk behavior require more attention, intervention, time, and resources. Therefore, we continue to work towards ensuring that the officers supervising the highest-risk behaviors have the fewest number of cases. When I returned to the agency, we found that previous policies had resulted in a mixed bag of caseloads.

Officers were overloaded from having to supervise a high number of cases mixing low, medium, and high-risk behavior clients. Not only is this poor practice from a workload perspective, but often results in lower-risk behavior getting too much intervention and high-risk behaviors not enough. We reassess the caseloads and right-size them according to risk level, a return to longstanding agency practice that our veteran officers are very familiar with and therefore should result in better outcomes for the people we serve.

Lastly, we know we cannot do this work alone. Here at probation, community is not only the neighborhoods our clients call home, but also the broader community of neighborhood-based organizations, businesses, nonprofits, government agencies, judges, and other stakeholders who are key partners in this work. Rebuilding those trusted relationships is is not only the right thing to do, but necessary to ensure our clients have what they need to succeed.

Already this year, we have met with the judges to begin restoring our court liaison offices in family court. We have paid long overdue and even elapsed contracts with struggling service providers. We are rebuilding our Neighborhood Opportunity Networks, NEON, model by reestablishing our NEON stakeholder groups. Ensuring community voice is part of community decision-making. Because when probation and the larger community are working together, anything is possible.

For example, earlier this year, one of our probation clients broke the record for fastest completion of the commercial driver's license certification. In partnership with Emerge Careers Next Mile Program, and the Mayor's Office of Criminal Justice, our client graduated with not one but two job offers paying over $80,000 a year.

A key part of our role in supporting young people and their families is ensuring that they have access to information about their rights and family court process. Regarding Intro 1104, the department supports The intent of the bill generally matches our current practice. As part of intake process in family court, probation provides the young person with their family— and their family with a package of information, including a notice of rights.

While there are some details in Intro 1104 where we have recommendations, my team and I look forward to working with the council to ensure that this bill aligns with the Family Court Act and best serves our young people and their families. Proper staffing, right-sized caseloads, and strong relationships are fundamental to the work we do. And as you have heard, probation is all about focusing on what works.

Although we still have a way to go, I am beyond proud of the work and dedication so far this year from the people of this department. Our client deserves nothing less. Thank you for the opportunity to testify. My team and I are pleased to answer any questions you have.

Thank you, Commissioner. And I just want to publicly thank you for getting your testimony to me in time. While it was not the 24 to 48 hours I was looking for, it still counts. So I was able to read your testimony while I was on the train into today. And I feel like it's helpful because it helps me to reconfigure the questions we're going to ask to make sure that the conversation is meaningful.

So I appreciate that and I want to acknowledge the effort. Thank you. I'm going to— I want to also acknowledge that we've now been joined by Councilmembers Ressler and Felice as well. And we'll just jump into the questions. So regarding department leadership and organizational strategy, What organizational changes have been implemented since January 2026, and which remain in development?

First is staffing and recruitment. We have really focused more on getting the agency staffed up with probation officers, and by adding the probation officer trainee title back to probation, We were able to really work with the different universities and their graduates to get them on board at probation. We also looked at— reassessed all our cases and established them in terms of their risk levels.

So now probation officers can focus on the lows, mediums, and highs, and it's not a mixed bag of cases. They also— it gives us an opportunity to lower the caseloads for the cases that require it, which is the highs and the mediums. We also went out and started rebuilding our relationships with our stakeholders. I've met with the judges.

I've met with the borough presidents, judges, borough presidents, staff, clients. We've been out there doing the work, and I'm proud of that. We also reestablished our NEON stakeholders group, which now brings the community back into our NEONs, back into probation, and start informing the work that we do around NEON in terms of NEON Sports, NEON Arts, NEON Inspires, NEON Works.

So we've been working real hard in that area. And one of the things that probation put together is our Department of Probation anchors, which is our data and technology, using information and technology to improve decision-making and identifying needs and opportunities and make our work more effective. We're looking at, you know, strengthening client and community engagement. Strengthening their relationships with the clients, families, and communities, including the strategic use of credible messengers and continued evolution of the NEONs as community assets.

We are looking— we are focusing on staff and team development and retention, investing in our people through strong relationships, professional development, support, accountability, and opportunities for growth, and also, of course, number one, evidence-based and evidence-informed best practices using research and evidence to guide what we do while continuously evaluating, learning, and adapting when the evidence is still developing.

Thank you for that. And that's a good segue into my next question, which was going to be how the department is measuring whether these changes are working and What do those metrics show so far? One of the things I can say is that we are working with CUNY's Institute for State and Local Governance on our framework to establish metrics and evaluate our community-based programs.

We also are focusing on building our own data points right now. We're in the middle of building this framework so we can really look at how we are governing ourselves at probation. Thank you for that.

I'm going to pivot to staffing vacancies, recruitment, and retention. So how many vacancies does the department currently have across all titles, and how many are in the probation officer title? Right now we have 171 vacancies. And 134 are in the probation officer title series. Now, the 171, is that inclusive of the 2 classes that have— is that number already taken out of this?

Right. Okay. But you project what the vacancy will be for next year? Because I know in your statement you had made a comment about that. So where do you project the vacancy to be at the end of next year again? So for the record, Rob Eusebio, First Deputy Commissioner. We are currently looking to graduate 50 candidates in December.

We have several classes simultaneously coming up to next year, so we should be fully staffed that fiscal year. That's what it was. Thank you for that clarification. How many probation officers have left the department in each of the past 3 fiscal years, and how many have been hired during the same So the report that we have was about 388 folks left the agency within those 3 calendar years.

We, as indicated here, our vacancy is down to 134 in the probation officer series. And as I indicated earlier, we have a class of 50 graduating in December, so we should be Obviously, with the organic attrition, we should be in line with our staffing by mid-year '27. And what do you feel the primary reasons are that the probation officers have been leaving?

It's a very— it varies in so many different areas, but one is it's very competitive out there. 2 is salaries. We're competing with other law enforcement agencies. And 3 is people is retiring. You know, we had a lot of people have been at probation for a long time, and over 25 years or more. Just at this table is over 100 and something years of experience, and we're still here fighting the fight.

So it varies. But hopefully, you know, I did some changes in that area because even their schedules, they didn't have a balanced work-life experience. And so when I got back, that was one of the first things I did was change their schedule. And so they can have— spend more time with their family and really help themselves, you know.

And we have a lot of re— experience at probation in terms of doing a lot of work with the probation officer. By the same token, it should be noted under the leadership of Community Goodwin, we have upward of nearly 30 people who have returned just because, you know, the interest in the work, the passion for our community and for the work that we do.

I'd like to acknowledge we've been joined by Councilmember Caban as well. Just staying in line with this, because there are certain, I feel like, jobs in New York City that, you know, deserve a lot more in terms of their wages. Mm-hmm. And I'm curious, now that you're looking at using different metrics and data as it pertains to, like, wages for probation officers to attract more talent.

Have you begun using data to, I guess, compare and contrast to other law enforcement agencies that you're in competition with to present and make the case for higher wages for the entry-level folks coming in? We are looking at that. You know, my HR director is constantly looking at our retention, um, how— who's like set to retire, and also making sure that, um, we are matching the possible people who are going to retire, that we're matching it, that we are hiring even more so we can stay balanced.

Mm-hmm. So yes, we are looking at what those numbers are looking like in terms of who's projected to leave and who— what we need to do to make sure we stay on course. As we get prepared to go into the next fiscal cycle, it would be great to work in advance of that to understand, like, what type of funding the department would need to better attract talent to come in, because obviously we're looking to try and get as many people that are eligible on the path to probation as opposed to having them in a carceral setting unnecessarily.

And so if there's a way that the council can help to support that effort, it'll be great to start having those conversations as well. In terms of timing, how long does it take on average for a probation officer vacancy to be filled? Good morning. My name is Xenia Melendez, Assistant Commissioner of Human Resources. On and off— You can go closer to the table.

I can't hear you. She was sworn in. She raised her hand. Yes. Good morning. Xenia Melendez, Assistant Commissioner of Human Resources. Just depending on the title, So for example, as Commissioner Goodwin indicated, she did reinstate the probation officer trainee position. So we would provisionally post the position. Within 2 weeks, we get a numerous amount of candidates who are interested.

We interview. I'd say within a month, we'd have candidates who are moving on to the next pre-employment phase, which includes medical, psychological, and background investigations. So within the month, we can have candidates who already Moving forward for the position. So, it takes about a month to get all of that information. Then they go— they get put on the track for the academy?

Correct. And then academy is how long again? 3.5 months. 3.5 months down from 5.1. See, I read it on the train. I told y'all. This is how it's helpful because, see, we have a real conversation. Okay. And so now it's 3.5 months. So that's like less than half a year you could be into like a career path at that point.

Correct. We currently have an academy class that's in the academy now, and we're gearing for our December academy as we speak. In the academy, they get paid also? Yes. The full amount? Yes. With benefits? Yes. And it's a part of their probation timeframe? Yes. Okay. I just want to have it on the record for those who's watching and maybe looking for a career change or something.

Okay. For the academy, how is the academy currently structured between classroom and field training? How did the department arrive at the length of the training? I know in the testimony it was stated that it's following the state guidance, but just wanting to understand that a little bit better as well. Good morning, council members. Thank you for that question.

So the— sorry, I don't think you were sworn in. My apologies. Jason Torres, Director of Training. One moment, we're going to swear you in. Mr. Torres, do you affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and to answer— thank you— and to answer council member questions? Honestly? I do. All right. Thank you.

Now you may continue. Good morning again, Council. Jason Torres, Director of Training. So our approach to this has been strategically optimized from 5.1 to 3.5 months. They go through several phases. There are 3 phases that they have: Phase 1, Phase 2, Phase 3 of the academy. A portion of that, which would be the latter stages of the academy, is where they get field training.

They also get hands-on training as well. So once they complete their state and regulatory requirements, then they move on to different phases. The last phase would be inclusive of that. And how has the current structure of the academy affected the new officers' readiness? By strategically optimizing it, what we did was get down to the core requirements that are needed.

With addition to those core requirements, we supplement those requirements with additional training as well. Some of the training that we saw before, there was an extended period of field training out in the field itself. So what we did was we reduced the time that they were out in the field to provide more training for them because they were going to get hands-on training as soon as they graduate from there.

So it was all about optimizing and planning ahead to ensure that we increase the level of training modalities, but also the effectiveness of it when they are operational. And what training do new officers receive after graduating from the academy? Is there any specific training related to supporting vulnerable youth, for example, that's done? I know in, like, PD, they have training modules that they can do, but they don't often get time to do it.

So I'm curious in terms of how probation approaches training and like after the academy has completed. Sure. I'm going to defer over to the Deputy Commissioner. So probation as a practice is an ongoing— we training ongoing. In fact, even those that have been in the job a long time knows that best practice requires that we continuously Honing in our skills, whether it's motivational interviewing, whether it's stages of change, whether anything else that relates to what's best practice in the field, we're constantly in that quest.

So to say that someone is fully trained, it means that we continuously look into what's going to make us do better in terms of engaging our clients so they can be on a path to meeting their goals. What happens once they leave the academy, they are onboarded by their— each borough assistant commissioner onboards the new people. So that means teaching them about setting goals, case management, how to supervise whatever risk they're going to receive.

They do— they have to learn how to run a rap sheet, they have to learn e-justice. So, sorry. Tina Ruggieri, Deputy Commissioner for Operations. As part of the onboarding, they're shadowing, they shadow the officers, you know, once they graduate from the academy as well. So, and as First Deputy Commissioner says, there's also refreshers, trainings throughout for the existing officers who are veterans.

So it's an ongoing training. Thank you. Anything else you wanted to add, Commissioner? Well, other than the practice itself requires that everyone has X amount, we do 21, at least mandatory 21 hours of training every year, and usually focused on the work that the person is sort of conducting out there in the field. Thank you. I'm going to yield.

I have more questions, but I'm going to allow my colleagues to ask their questions, starting with Councilmember Marano, followed by Councilmember Ressler. Thank you very much, Chair. Commissioner, thank you for your testimony, and thank you for your 4 decades of service to this city and to the Department of Probation. Appreciate it very much. I was particularly interested in your testimony because you said your department's organizational strategy can be summarized in 2 words: what works.

And that's a great philosophy for all of us in city government. And I think my concern is whether we're actually measuring what works, particularly when it comes to public safety. There was one thing in your testimony that really jumped out at me. You said that under the previous system, your officers had a mixed bag of caseloads, which resulted in people exhibiting lower-risk behavior receiving too much intervention, and people exhibiting high-risk behavior receiving not enough.

Obviously, I think we'd all recognize that's backwards. And I appreciate the department's admission on that. So are you telling us that individuals your own department considered high risk weren't receiving the level of supervision they should be receiving? I'm going to say that they were receiving supervision, but one of the things that concerns me is making sure that they are really getting the interventions that they needed.

I think that when you have a mixed bag of cases, you, you pick a lane and you stay in it. You're not giving the right amount of dosage to the people, and that really concerned me. Do, do we know how long that was happening, the insufficient amount of dosage, let's say? And more importantly, do we know whether Anyone committed a serious violent crime while receiving less supervision than the department's own risk assessment called for?

In terms of the mixed bag, I think it's been about 3 years. However, I don't know of any— anyone involved in any high crime or, you know, violent crime or anything like that. The committee report indicated that juvenile rearrests increased by 50%. That's very concerning to me, not just because it means young people are getting into more trouble, but because every additional crime potentially means another innocent New Yorker has been victimized.

Can you tell us what's behind that 50% increase, including the time period it covers, and what percentage of those rearrests involved violent offenses. Good morning. Stacy Desimone, Deputy Commissioner for Juvenile Operations. So as you know, we all know that the juvenile arrest numbers have increased, but I do want to say that since this commissioner has been here, our arrest rate has started to decrease, right?

And one of the things that she talked about is making sure that we are supervising the young people one size fits one, right? We want to make sure that we are targeting those young people as soon as they get placed on probation. We are making sure that we are connecting with their circle of influence, who is important to that young person, who is able to help navigate the system with that young person.

We are also making sure that we are really, really sharing that load with our community-based organizations, right? It's a collective approach and it's a partnership. We also know that we want to make sure that we have the right staff and enough staff, right? So that is why we are staffing up to make sure that we have enough officers for those high-risk caseloads.

Currently we have, out of the 43 supervision officers in juvenile, we have 18 that are strictly monitoring those cases. So we are We have some branches that have gun units, you know, for those that are on probation for firearms. We have those that are in Level 4, which is your highest level of supervision. We want to make sure that they have the lower caseload, attacking them and making sure that they're getting the services.

It's not where we want to be. Sure. We understand it's a challenge, and we are always about public safety, and we are working diligently to lower that arrest rate for the juvenile. Got it. Well, no, we all want the same thing. I wanted to add, since my appointment has been 9 months, and so just like adult, juvenile also, we went back and reassessed all those cases and separated them out so we can focus intently on who needs the most intervention.

Let me ask you about one of the success stories that you mentioned involving a probation client who completed commercial driver's license training and received 2 job offers paying more than $80,000 a year, and that's terrific, and I'd love to hear more success stories like that. But I also think taxpayers are entitled to know whether these are isolated success stories or representative of broader results.

Of the people participating in your employment and rehab programs, what percentage successfully complete them? find employment, and then avoid a new arrest? Well, we obviously— we're looking year to date, obviously, so we're not going to speak to the past, at least under the leadership of Commissioner Goodwin. We are encouraged by the fact that we're seeing a decrease all around in terms of things— people engaging in negative outcomes, right?

To say who is completing the program and who isn't getting— We see a 60%, 70% completion rate as it relates to programming. We want to do better in terms of keeping track of that. So that's part of the framework that we're sort of building to sort of be able to tell you apple to apple. Obviously, we don't have a cohort, so it's fluid.

We get new cases every day, but we're encouraged about what we've seen thus far. And I appreciate— And that's the reason why we're working with CUNY And, you know, I— yeah. I always get that. ISLG. And so we can start looking at that and we can come and report more in terms of— and also hiring different consultants to look at what we're doing and we can get a better read and evaluation about our work.

Thank you. Councilmember, if you have more questions, I can bring you up after Councilmember Beckford. Thanks. Thanks so much, Chair Brooke Powers, and it's great to be with you here at this committee and great to be with the leadership of the Department of Probation. You know, over the last 4 years, I received many, many dozens of complaints— lots were anonymous— of cronyism, corruption, incompetence at the Department of Probation.

I will tell you, of all of the agencies that I think were badly mismanaged during the previous administration, none more so than the Department of Probation. And so the scale of the turnaround, kind of, that you are charged with is greater than any other commissioner in city government. And it's really tragic to me what the previous administration did, because over your 40-year career, the Department of Probation had been a model of reform and innovation in city government.

From the Bloomberg to the de Blasio administrations, we had great leaders who were doing really compelling and innovative things. And, and that all came to a really harsh stop in recent years. And so I'm heartened by your testimony today. I'm impressed by your plan to be fully staffed up. at the end of next year. You know, it takes— when somebody hollows out an agency, when somebody, you know, encourages— when somebody, I think, does such a poor job of leading an agency and people leave en masse and programs are eliminated, it takes time to build it back up.

It doesn't happen in a day. I really want to focus my questions today around some of the programs that Commissioner Holmes eliminated. and get an understanding of where they are and how you're repairing and restoring. I'm particularly concerned about youth incarceration. During the Adams administration, we went from about 150 kids in our juvenile detention facilities to well over 370.

That number more than doubled. And part of the problem is that the Department of Probation was nowhere to be found and was not a partner. We heard from multiple— from leaders across city government that they, they could no longer rely on DOP. And so we're keen to see how DOP is now stepping up to help solve these problems.

Under the past administration, there were over $5 million in cuts to evidence-based programs that serve at-risk young adults. Cuts of $700,000 to the IMPACT program, $2.6 million to Next Steps, $1.6 million to Arches. And DOP stopped making referrals to the AIM program, the Advocate Intervene Mentor program. The Intensive Community Monitor Program, ICM, was reportedly hollowed out, and probation officers were joining ARCHES meetings, which goes against every best practice that I've ever come across.

So what I'd really love is if you and your team today and, you know, could help us walk through what are the plans to restore each of those programs or alternatives that you're pursuing so that we can get DOP to be making a difference again to help keep young adults out of juvenile detention. I want to say that it is our goal to be innovative and bold and bring probation back to its glory.

The second is, is that the programs that are no longer at probation, I've met with a lot of different community-based organizations, and what I've said to them is that we may not be able to bring it back, But what we can do is develop new ones, older ones. And we have enough experience to learn about what worked and what didn't and what we can add to programming.

So we are looking at putting out different white papers, working with the organizations to, like, bring back different innovative programs such as working, like, with a program like Emerge. The clients have an opportunity to work at their own pace. You know, it's not like you have to finish between— you got 4 months to finish this program. A lot of the programs that we're really looking at is making sure that the client can finish whatever certification, but it's done at their pace.

And we're looking to to look for, you know, anything in AI, IT. We're looking at a plethora of different programming to bring back to probation. I appreciate that. I would just underscore the urgency because, you know, I think as of Friday, Councilmember Stevens told me we have 352 young adults in our juvenile detention facilities. We do not have capacity.

I've heard a lot from the Mondoni administration about how they're renovating spaces and creating more beds for people. I have heard less about how we're driving down incarceration, and we need DOP to step up and be a real partner there.

I'm going to get cut off, so I want to ask one more question, which is guns. Commissioner Holmes insisted that every uniformed officer carry a gun. What is the current policy of the Department of Probation as it relates to guns? Yeah. So obviously we have moved away from some of the policies that didn't make sense. Part of this is we are in tangent working with the whole team working in what makes sense, who should carry and shouldn't carry.

We have made policies that support the people that need to be, you know, obviously given the nature of our work, that needs to be armed. will remain armed, but by and large, the agency is not mandating folks that are in no, you know, enforcement unit to carry weapons. Is there a new written policy that can be shared with us?

We, uh, West Stage is the policy. Good day. Wayne McKenzie, Deputy Commissioner for Legal and External Affairs. Um, I was actually one of the architects of the former policy under the Giraldi administration. So we're returning to that, and we're hoping within the next week or so we'll actually have a draft for our exec team to approve, and at which point we'll then have the union obviously weigh in, and we'd be ready to share it with the council thereafter.

We would really appreciate that. And I just, you know, as I close, just want to say Welcome back to city government, Commissioner Goodwin, Deputy Commissioner McKenzie, and many others, you know, and look forward to you all restoring the Department of Probation to its glory. Thank you. Thank you. And as always, we look forward to your support.

Thank you. Thank you. Councilmember Marano. I don't necessarily have anything else. Just the one— I'll ask one— make one comment and I'll ask one other question. I recognize that we want to focus on the statistics over the last 9 months because that's a reflection of what you're doing. But I also think, for some of the reasons my colleagues have alluded to, it's also important to look back and see what the differences were based on before you guys took over as compared to now.

I'll ask one final question. Your testimony did focus on what's working internally at the Department of Probation. I think that's important. If we're sitting here a year from now, what specific public safety outcomes should New Yorkers expect to have improved as a result of the organizational changes that you guys have made? Will we see fewer rearrests, fewer violent offenses committed by individuals under supervision, better compliance among high-risk probationers, something else?

So when we do this a year from now, What can we go back and look at as a measure of the department's success? I think you answered the question. Well, anything I'm missing then? One of the things I think I really want to look at too is how program is informing our outcomes in terms of changing the lives of our clients.

So I would add that to the list. So it's a lot that we are putting together in terms of what our metrics is actually going to look like. Got it. Thank you. And thank you, Chair.

Thank you. Sticking with juvenile probation adjustment and diversion, how many cases were eligible for adjustment in fiscal year 2026, and how many were actually adjusted? Good morning again. Stacy Destin Moore. We had approximately 9,000 cases that came through intake and about 1,400 that were adjusted. What is eligible for adjustment depends on the charges, depends on the circumstance of the case, and that's the process of a probation intake probation officer is to determine the eligibility and the suitability of the case to be diverted from court.

I know that our adjustment rate is not where we want it to be, and that is something that I am going to be working with my team. We had started looking at the cases. We want to make sure that we have the right staff in place to be able to effectively assess a case and looking at that young person as a whole and seeing what that young person's strengths are, but also What are some of the challenges so that we can determine why can't we divert this case from court?

We want to divert as many suitable and possible cases from further court involvement, right? We want to give that young person an opportunity. So that is something that I'm committed to with my team to make sure that we get to a place where we used to. I mean, I've been around and I know when the adjustment rate was very high at 41%, and I think that we are going to set a goal of 20%.

Thank you. 20% for the next fiscal year to reach. You weighted in my next question, so it seems like we were sharing notes, it feels like, today. But I was going to ask, how does it compare to prior years and prior administrations? So it sounds like there has been some significant change. We have to really— what I plan on doing and what I've started doing is just looking at why we made certain decisions, right?

And we want to look at what were the class and charges, again, what was eligible, and of course, you know, with the eligibility that relates to the charge. We cannot divert a designated felony case, those serious charges, without the approval of the court. Right. So then we want to make sure that those that are suitable and eligible, what is making us determine that they're not and we have to refer them to further court process.

So I want to look at how the staff is assessing cases, again, making sure that we have enough staff in those key places and making sure that they are trained. And we are doing just overall in juvenile operations, we are going to be doing training and retraining of every staff, and hopefully by March of next year everyone will be in a good position.

And I'm happy that we have more staff coming out of the classes so that we can bulk up in those areas that are important because probation is the front door and we are, you know, we want to be able to do what is necessary, help those young people connect with community-based organizations, services, whatever they need so that they don't come through our door again.

And that's the whole point of it. Thank you for that. What services are available to young people whose cases are adjusted? So we have— it depends, right? So Again, we want to know what that young person— their interests are, what is the nature of the offense, and try to target those services and interventions based on that, right?

We also want to take into account what the— if there's a victim on a case, what their position is or what their feeling is to try to sort of make them whole, right? We have mentoring for the young people. We also have Saturday programs. We also have employment. We also support that young, young person with school if there's any educational needs.

We are making sure that we are addressing that. And we also have services for the parent, right? Because it's a, it's a challenging process. Yes. I speak to parents every— all the time, and, and they are fearful, right, of the process, and they're fearful of, of their child and, and what this means for them, right? So we want to— we have parent support and parent coaches for every parent.

From the beginning of intake throughout the probation process to make sure that they have someone to help navigate the system. So whatever the young person needs, and if there's something that they're interested in, you know, we want to make sure that we're targeting it. If the young person wants to do boxing, if the young person wants to do creative writing, if the young person is interested in cosmetology, we want to make sure that we are targeting that.

We have wraparound funds for that to make sure we get what the young person Thank you for that.

Pivoting to early termination of probation, we have been told that judges may be more inclined to grant motions for early termination of probation when those motions are filed by the Department of Probation. Is this something that you're aware of? Yes, I am, and I would— I'm glad to say that probation is now looking at all of our cases that are eligible for us to do early discharges.

I know it was a cease in practice, but I can report that it's back. Thank you. And since the start of this administration, how many times has the department filed a motion to terminate someone's probation early? And do you know how that number compares to previous administrations? So obviously we're coming back to that practice. Currently I don't have the exact numbers, but we are encouraged by the fact that we are— our philosophy is aligning with our value.

We are definitely going to be coming back to this body with numbers, concrete numbers, to inform that practice where we are. Better yet, you can just send it to us in writing. before the week is out, that'd be great. What factors go into determining whether to file a motion for early termination? So every case, we assess everyone who is on probation, and part of that assessment is making sure that we have addressed any, you know, mitigating factors, any concerns for public safety.

Obviously, that's what we're looking for. before we put someone through the, you know, submission of early discharges. We're looking at the whole, the whole person, you know, are they employed? Are they staying arrest-free? Are they, are they, you know, doing things positive? Are they re-engaging with the family? We're also making sure that they have— they know where to turn to if they ever need support.

Neon is one of those resources that we heavily rely on. Make sure they know that if they ever find themselves in need of any support, they can still come back to probation regardless of whether they are on probation or not. And I would add, in terms of what we look at for early discharges is making sure that the person hasn't been rearrested.

We look at to see if they have steady employment. We look at their family dynamics and their situation and it's stable. We look at if they completed either high school, a vocational program. So it's a number of things that we look at that we can inform the court that this person is doing well and they are no longer a threat to themselves or the community.

Thank you for that. We have heard that in situations when a person's assigned probation officer— when a person's assigned probation officer and that officer's supervisor are in agreement about early termination, that the department's general counsel may still oppose or take no position on such termination. What causes the disconnect between the position of an assigned officer and a general counsel?

So, I'm not going to speak to the practices of any previous administration. I can say under this current administration, every early discharge is assessed on its merits. So there should be no blanket objection from the Office of General Counsel in this regard. And in fact, we'd like to encourage early discharges when people are entitled to it. Thank you.

So, so far you haven't had to contend with that, but your thoughts are that you don't see— We've had one situation where I had to issue some clarification around certain types of cases, and that clarification has been that every case should be judged On its own merits. There's no blanket objections. I hear you about not having a blanket determination.

However, what I'm asking is if there is an assigned officer and their supervisor that's saying one thing, what would cause a disconnect with the general counsel? to be in opposition of that determination from someone who is dealing more regularly with the individual? There should be none. We should be guided by the recommendations of operations. There are certain legal factors, for example, in, in the law for someone to be eligible And if there was some disconnect there, that would be appropriate.

Right now, it's generally driven by policy. And I can tell you the policy is there is no blanket objection. Thank you for that. And staying in the same line of questioning, are the officers made aware ahead of time that the general counsel may oppose or express no opinion on early termination? And you raise a valid point, right, because there may be something legally that may prevent that individual from being eligible for this discharge, and so, are the officers made aware before they even say, I think— Client X should have an early discharge?

I'm not sure I understand, because generally speaking, it's the supervision officers who are driving that process, and general counsel should be doing a review. And so If there is a legal reason, then obviously they're going to counsel the officers about the legal reason. If there is a strong— So you've just answered me. Thank you. Oh, okay.

Pivoting to Intro 1104, my bill. Thank you, Commissioner, for your sentiments on the bill. I'm looking forward to having more conversations around it, but just had a few questions for the record. What information does the department currently provide to young people and their parents or guardians before an intake interview? Good morning again. So every parent and young person that comes through intake, we provide them with a notice of Rights, and then when the officer meets with the family, they go over the process.

One thing that I did put into place is that for those cases that are being removed from Youth Park, I've had the CLOs now keep copies of those Notice of Rights to give out to the family just in case they are not participating in the intake. at least they have those notice of rights so that they can review and have it before they even come over to the cases being removed over to family court.

So it's a process. It's whatever the parent has, whatever question, we go through. This is a possibility that can happen based on the circumstance of the case. We're making sure we interview this person. Mm-hmm. We try to gather information on the school. We try to gather information on how the young person is functioning within the community, all those things, and to let them know this is what we're taking into consideration when we're making a determination.

We also let them know just that they— that the process is voluntary, right, and that they don't have to participate if they don't want to. But we do give them the notice in hand, but we also have a conversation once we sit with them in person. Thank you. Thank you. What resources, staff training, or procedural changes would the department need to implement Intro 1104?

Repeat your question again. What resources, staff training, or procedural training— excuse me, changes would the department need to implement Intro 1104? So what changes would you need to do in order to— be in compliance with this local law? Well, this intro. Um, I don't know if we require any procedural trainings. Um, a lot of what's in— Changes, not trainings.

Oh, changes. A lot of what's in 1104 already aligns with much of our business practices and notices that we're required to give by the Family Court Act. Now, there may be certain recommendations that we have that we think can bring 1104 more in alignment with our business practices and the wordings of, for example, the Family Court Act.

As an example, 1104 refers to PSIs, and PSIs is something that's a phrase that's used in the adult context, but not in the family court context. And so we really look forward to working with you and your team to better align this bill, because as the Commissioner says, it has our support. Thank you for that. Are— excuse me— are officers adequately trained to explain the statutory protections governing statements made during intake?

Like, is there a training module in terms of how they should— I think a number of us can answer that question, but part of the training module does include, um, training by the attorneys on various legal aspects. Do you think that is standardized Notice could further help the officers explain the process consistently? We believe so, yes. And in your estimation, what information do young people and families most need when they first interact with probation?

So I think what's needed the most is something that we may not actually be able to legislate, right? Anytime you've got someone interacting with the criminal legal process at the beginning, there's a significant amount of stress. So for example, in the juvenile context, I think one way we can do a better job is if we engage more— is it the parent coaches?

Yes. Right. That is— that's— they're explaining the process and they're holding the individual by the hand and leading them through the process. Thank you. One moment.

Just want to recognize we've been joined by Councilmembers Salaam and Brewer. I'm going to pivot to court liaison officers and family court coordination. How many court liaison officers does the department currently employ? So I'm happy to say that we are staffing up in that area, and we have a total of 13. There's 8 for family court, and we are staffing up the youth part.

We have 5, and we need a total of 6, so we need one more for Manhattan. We can use one more, though, for Family Court in Queens and one more for Family Court in the Bronx. But we are— We'll send the job postings to the committee members. We'll make sure we put them out also. And I guess you answered the next question, which is how many court liaison officers are assigned to each borough and Family Court location?

So, for Queens, it's one for Family Court and one for Youth Part. For the Bronx, we have 2 in Family Court, and beginning on November 2nd, we will have 2 in the Youth Part. And then in Manhattan, we have 2 in Family Court. And then in Brooklyn, we have 3 in Family Court, and we have 1 in the Youth Part.

And in Staten Island, we have a hybrid where the CLO covers the Youth Part and Family Court. Thank you for that. What responsibilities do court liaison officers currently perform? I will start with the youth part, and I will say that the judges are very pleased that they have the CLOs back. So for the youth part, the CLO is responsible for tracking any arraignment for the purpose of whether or not the young person is going to be removed to family court and making sure that they have all the necessary information and documents to forward to their colleagues at intake.

Also, they track any case where the judge is placing a young person on ICM or voluntary services. And then they also provide the updates for the courts and all parties— oh, thank you— and all parties when the young person appears at the adjournments and any information that the court— any questions they will answer that the court has with regards to those young people that may be on ICM or those cases that are being removed.

They also speak to the families as the cases are being removed to family court to give them this information, of course, and also now the notice of rights. Thank you for that. And then for the family court, so they are— they're available at arraignment. So when the young person is arraigned on a new charge, They're there to provide the court with some background information and also let the court know what risk level they are to determine what ATD they may be appropriate for or available to that young person.

They also stand up and provide information with regards to the investigations report and any progress report that is given to the court and all parties. Any question that the judge may have in regards to how that young person who may be on probation, how they're functioning, and they have additional questions that may not be in the progress report, the CLO is there to facilitate that information and just be a conduit for the court and for probation.

Thank you for that. And how does the department coordinate with the Administration for Children's Services, the Law Department, Department and defense counsel on juvenile cases? So I think we, we of course coordinate. I guess with regards to ACS, it's, you know, for those young people that may be in detention and being released to probation or during the intake phase and at arraignment.

We also have, of course, you know, we have the team of officers that are coordinating with ACS who do weekend and evening arraignment for detention and intake. And what challenges remain in coordinating probation services with family court? I think, again, we probably need— some boroughs maybe need a little bit more staff and 1 or 2 more CLOs just to be available for the court.

I meet with the courts regularly, so we have that great open communication. I met with the Bronx judges, so we just talk about any issues and concerns. So it's just making sure that they're readily available and that the information is flowing. Thank you for that.

I'm going to yield my questions for Councilmember Salaam to ask a few. Thank you and good morning. Um, thank you, Chair. Just a few questions regarding, uh, DOP oversight and the staffing in the workforce. I'm not sure if this was answered already because I kind of came in and they were talking about some, some of the staffing issues.

But as of March of 2026, DOP reported a 23% vacancy rate with 255 vacancies, including 210 probation officers Since fiscal year 2023, DOP lost 405 officers and hired 235, a net loss of 170. What is the vacancy count today, and what is the hiring target and timelines to close the probation officer gap? Is it morning still? Good morning.

We have We have overall 171 vacancy rates. Yeah. And of that, 134 are probation officer— in the probation officer series. We plan on hopefully staffing up within the next year. We— with the 4 classes coming in at 50. So we should be in good shape by then. Thank you. And in terms of outcomes and performances, juvenile rearrest rates rose 50% over— rose 50%.

Over that— over what period, from what base number, and to what does DOP attribute the increase to? Can you repeat the last part of your question? Sure. So the juvenile rearrest rate rose 50%. Over what period, from what base number, and to what does DOP attribute the increase? Well, I think part of it, and as we know, and then we talked about, just staffing is one issue, and we are improving with that.

Also, just in terms of the alignment of the units, right? officers were carrying sometimes 6 and 7 different units, whether low, high, and moderate. So we, with all the boroughs, we are making changes to that so that the officers are identified as high-risk officers, those that are moderate, and those that are low, to make sure that it's right-sizing and one size for those young people.

And I think that it's easier to manage for the officers, and then making sure we also lower the caseloads for those higher-risk populations. Another thing is that it's very important that we meet with those young people immediately, right? We find out what is going on. We sit with that young person to set goals and to see what they need and also just to figure out what is driving the behavior, right?

And it's always about changing and making modifications to their behavior. So what do they want? What do they need? Also for the parent, how can we help you, how can we work together? And it's a team approach. And also with our community-based organizations, we are pulling them in to help us with that process. We know that the arrest rate is very high, but we are on a path to tackling that.

And since this commissioner has been here, we are making improvements within the last 6 months. Even though it's a small percentage, we are We are hopeful that we are moving in the right direction. Well, thank you for that. I know, like, jobs and, you know, meaningful employment definitely goes a long way, especially for young people, because, you know, if you're doing things that might not necessarily be productive in society, then you fall back into old things, you know.

I'll never forget my good friend Les Brown said, if you can't see it, you can't be it. And so a lot of times it's those examples that you can see in front of you that really will help you to change for the better. Because if you see yourself in the future— sometimes our children don't even see themselves as a part of the future.

It's about giving opportunities and, and showing them that there is opportunities for them. Absolutely. Last question that I have right now, and we know that you support Intro 1104. What would implementation cost, and what can DOP readily be ready within— and can DOP be ready within the 90-day effective date? So I previously shared that we had some recommendations that would better align 1104 with our business practices.

Philosophically, we're very supportive of 11:04. I think that once we all work together to tweak it in terms of operationalizing it, that 90 days will be fine. All right. Thank you, Chair. Thank you.

Next we'll have questions from Councilmember Brewer. Thank you. If this was answered, let me know. Councilmember Salaam and I were at an earlier meeting together, so we're both late and I apologize. My question is, and just for adults as well as young people, alternatives to anything, incarceration, how are the programs aligned to the— you are doing what you can, but I don't know if you can make sure that every kind of program that's needed is available.

I mean, I know for instance I have a friend whose daughter is mentally ill. She got arrested, tried to kill her mother and her brother. And, you know, it's hard. There aren't a lot of programs to fit her. We spent 2 days, the 2 of us, calling around. We found one that might work, et cetera. So how— do we need other kinds of programs?

Are you finding that there are sufficient alternatives? Because these young people need a lot of support. We are looking at the programs that we are utilizing now, and in fact, I'm convening a meeting in the coming weeks with other community-based organizations to talk about programming and talking about availability and what they have and is there any way that probation may be helpful in terms of extending or providing them with resources so they can take more people.

So right now, Within the 2 weeks, under Annie Minguez, we're going to work together to look at that, at probation. So what kind of programs do you think you need, or is it just more capacity in the programs that are there? Because you have some very, you know, even when you're doing intensive, like you talked about with some of the young people, they may not have a place to live, et cetera.

It's not like even a program can help. We almost need housing. my opinion, for some young people. I wish we could be looking at that. Go ahead. I just want to hear from you what you need. One of the things I think I'm— that's what I need is making sure we reassess what we have first. You know, I got 9 months under my belt, so I'm looking at employment.

We're looking at mental health, behavioral health. We're looking at housing. These are the main components, you know, that we need at probation. So we are definitely looking at it. Like I said, I've been convening with different organizations to look at capacity, which is very important. I need to know what capacity is— are there programs we are missing, right?

There's a lot of resources in New York City, and some of them go overlooked. So I need to know what that is. So we're mapping at this point. Okay. And the Department of Education or whatever the hell it's called, New York City Public Schools, I hate that name because it's a noun. It makes no sense to me.

But anyway, do they help in some way with some of the programs that are for older students or even younger students? So from our history working with probation, we had a close relationship with DOE and we We're going back to the roots because we actually had classrooms in some of our NEON sites. That's the way how we supported not just people on probation but also community members at large across the city.

So we are very much looking at assessing, as the commissioner indicated, but also looking at other things that are innovative, from AI to things that are more attractive to the people that we serve. And what about housing? Do you have some sense of how many young people don't have a home to go to. This young woman I'm talking to, the only place was her grandmother because she had 3 orders of protection.

There was nothing left. And if it wasn't for her grandmother, who happens to be a friend of mine, she'd be on the street. So housing obviously is a stabilizing factor in the life of everyone, not just young people. And it's something that we work continuously. In fact, we also work at establishing relationships with DHS who is one of our partners, you know, through the NEON.

So we're looking to see— and by the way, we're not just stopping there. It's also seeing what other out-of-the-box thinking we can do to support people in that space as well. Okay. Can you let the chair know when you have your assessment what it is that you need? Because I hope that during the budget season— we're not going to bring— I don't think you're going to bring those numbers down if you don't have the programs that you are reassessing.

I can't believe— it's not going to be easy. There's lots of gaps. So you'll let us know where you are in terms of reassessing? Obviously, we will come back and get your support as well because we believe that everyone has a stake here as a city. To do better, we all got to work collectively. And that's part of our NEOM model, right?

Everyone plays a role here. Okay. Thank you, Madam Chair. And we— I just wanted to add that, and we will be making our rounds with City Council.

Sounds great. Next, I want to pivot to Intelligence Unit. How many probation officers are in the Intelligence Unit? So we have 14 probation officers 10 supervising probation officers, 2 branch chiefs, and 1 associate commissioner. Thank you. What are the Intelligence Unit's primary responsibilities, and how does it coordinate with the NYPD and other law enforcement So there are different units.

In particular, for example, would be our cyber, our cyber unit. We also have an officer that's detailed to HIDA and another with the U.S. Marshals Task Force. Previously, intel was decentralized and it's now been recentralized. And like every other part of the agency, we also need more officers in the Intelligence Division as well. So we're very slowly and deliberately Rebuilding.

And someone could apply directly into that position versus coming up the ranks? So if, for example, we come across someone who's got a specific skill set, right, let's say in the cyber area, yep, that person might be pulled. But generally speaking, we like individuals who've had experience in the field. whether it be adult or juvenile operations, so they can better support those operations.

Do any members of the Intelligence Unit have a caseload where they must supervise clients? They don't directly supervise clients. They should be working with the case PO in that regard. Intel is more of a support than a caseload-bearing division.

Pivoting to community-based programming and contracts, a report commissioned by the Mayor's Office for Economic Opportunity from June 2025 noted that a large plurality Roughly 44% of people who learned about the NEON Works program— Bless you. Learned about it from friends or family, while only 18% of people learned about it from the Department of Probation. Is that a trend with other NEON programs as well?

And does this indicate that most participants are not necessarily Department of Probation clients? It was a past practice, but it won't be moving forward. And that's why we hired our DC of Strategic Initiatives and Engagement. And so we are definitely moving in a different direction. But with the past policy, was that indicative that most participants were not necessarily clients of Department of Probation?

Yes. Okay. But we're looking to make sure that it's 60% clients, 40% community. Why that number? Because we want to make sure that all of our clients is getting the services and the resources needed to help us engage in making sure that they're serviced first. But we're still open to having community involved. The same 2025 report also noted that the program— that program participants, despite being satisfied with the NEON Works program, faced barriers to participation such as commitments to their school or job, caregiving responsibilities, concerns with neighborhood safety, and limited access to mental health support.

Has the department addressed any of these issues? So the NEA by definition is about tapping into all the resources that we can bear at a given community. And by and large, whether it's behavioral health services or vocational mentoring opportunities, they're open to everyone in that community. And significantly, our job now is to make sure that our clients are also connected to the services at hand.

But has the department addressed any of those issues? So let me go up front and say, we are— that's what we're doing right now. We're sort of redoubling, working with our stakeholders. Again, that was something that the commissioner underscored in her testimony. Engaging the stakeholders, by definition, is about that. It's about making sure that what matters to that community is happening, whether it's the type of programming that is needed.

If there's a gap, that we can be there upfront and able to engage them. So in short, are we addressing it? Yes, we are. It's in process. At this time. Understood. Given that the department is weathering a general staff recruitment and retention— I don't want to call it crisis anymore because it seems like you guys are doing significant work around that.

Do those same issues exist to programs that the Department of Probation provides, or does the department see staffing these programs as the sole responsibility of the vendor? I think it's a collaborative approach. It shouldn't be just a vendor. It should be probation also in partnership. Thank you.

This panel is now dismissed. I appreciate the testimony and the responses today. I now open the hearing for public testimony. I remind members of the public that this is a government proceeding and that decorum shall be observed. reserved at all times. As such, members of the public shall remain silent at all times. The witness table is reserved for people who wish to testify.

No video recording or photography is allowed from the witness table. Further, members of the public may not present audio or video recordings as testimony, but may submit transcripts of such recordings to the sergeant-at-arms for inclusion in the hearing record. If you reach If you wish to speak at today's hearing, please fill out an appearance card with the sergeant-at-arms and wait to be recognized.

When recognized, you will have 2 minutes to speak on today's hearing topic, the organizational strategy of the Department of Probation. If you have a written statement or additional written testimony you wish to submit for the record, please provide a copy of that testimony to the sergeant-at-arms. Thank you. You will— you may also email written testimony to testimony@council.nyc.gov within 72 hours of the close of this hearing.

Audio and video recordings will not be accepted. For in-person panelists, please come up to the table once your name has been called. Now I'll call our first in-person panel. Good morning. Delvany Powell, Natalie Peoples-Stokes, and Youngmee Lee. I said it right? Yes. Okay. And when you're ready, you can just come off of mute and get started. You get started whenever you want.

Just come off of mute. We've already agreed on who will speak first.

Good morning, everyone. My name is Youngmi Lee. I'm an attorney at Brooklyn Defender Services, a public defender office where we represent thousands of individuals in both Brooklyn and in Queens. First of all, I just want to say that BDS is and remains optimistic that the Department of Probation will go back to being an agency that supports rehabilitation versus being a very much law enforcement, us against you type of agency.

I want to talk about the power of the Department of Probation, specifically about 3 areas, although there are more. And I know I only have 1 minute left, so I do want to talk about certificate of relief relief from civil disabilities, access to counsel during pre-sentence investigation report interviews with the Department of Probation, as well as the early termination program.

First, probation has a huge role in determining whether someone could receive a prison sentence, a jail sentence, or a non-incarceratory sentence, even after an agreed-upon plea. And I say this because oftentimes when a person pleads guilty and the promised sentence is probation, the court will order what's called an INS report, a PSR— they're all the same— a pre-sentence investigation report.

That report is done by a probation officer who at the end can make a recommendation. Oftentimes we find, especially in the last few years, the recommendation has always been jail or prison despite the promised sentence of probation. We also find that probation officers can and will encourage people to deny their guilt, which then results in the court saying the promised sentence of probation is off the table.

And sometimes judges will threaten hearings, and obviously the person can depart from the promise and send someone to prison. My 1 minute is up. I am going to let you continue because we are light on public testimony. So for this panel, because you are the defenders and the union, we will accommodate. Okay. Thank you. I'll try to be a lot quicker.

We learned during the Harvey— after the Harvey Weinstein trial in 2020 that attorneys can attend these probation interviews, but only upon a court order. I have been told by judges that they will grant these requests. I would just ask probation to streamline the process and that whenever an attorney can and wants to attend these probation interviews, that the attorney just be allowed to without a court order.

It should be just the default. I also want to talk about certificates of relief from civil disabilities. Again, this has a lot to do with rehabilitation. BDS has worked with the Department of Probation actually doing CRD drives within the community at different locations. While a CRD is not the end-all in terms of people being able to obtain employment, it certainly helps, especially when there are legal barriers to employment such as security guard licenses or TLC licenses.

By getting a certificate of relief from civil disabilities, many people can obtain such employment. In the old days, the Department of Probation had a policy where all probation reports also had a recommendation about CRDs. We have seen that practice fall out of place, and we are asking probation to again recommend CRDs whenever a probation report is completed, especially obviously when a person is going to receive a sentence of probation.

When someone gets a prison sentence, probation doesn't have any control over that, and the person has to be recommended for a CRD by the parole board. So I would just ask that probation again bring that— bring back that practice where every PSI has a recommendation attached. Finally, early termination of probation. There was some testimony earlier about the early termination program, but I do want to emphasize that there are many people who are serving up to 5 years of probation on a felony sentence, and oftentimes that is unnecessary.

Within 5 years, a person has usually completed all of their conditions of probation. They need to be terminated from probation early, successfully. And I say this because in order for a clean slate to actually take effect, the person has to be terminated from probation or parole so that they can get an earlier sealing of their convictions. The same is true for misdemeanors.

A sentence of probation on a misdemeanor can last up to 3 years, which is at times inordinately long when a person has already conditioned— satisfied all the conditions of probation. And with that, I will complete my testimony.

Thank you. Thank you. Good morning, everyone. My name is Natalie Peoples. I'm the attorney in charge of Youth Justice policy and training at the Juvenile Rights Practice of the Legal Aid Society. Our juvenile practice combined with our criminal practice represents most of the children that are charged with crimes in New York City, and we intend to submit written remarks in addition to what I say today.

I want to thank you for holding this hearing to discuss the current policies and culture of the Department of Probation as well as 1104. I want to first take a maybe 30 seconds to discuss 1104. While we applaud the intent of the bill, what we're talking about here is a time that is post-arrest, pre-filing, pre-assignment of counsel, and the decisions that are made during that process, during that interview process by the child and their responsible adult, can affect the long-term posture of their case, which affects the long-term posture of a child's life.

We think that this bill does not go far enough and that counsel should be required at that stage for those— for that interview and for the important decisions that are made during that time period. The language both in the bill and also in the Family Court Act about what information can be disclosed at what stage in the proceeding is confusing and it's complicated, and we find a lot of our clients necessarily understand it, which is why it's immensely important for council to be involved that early in the process.

Now, in March of this year, the Department of Probation made some promises. They promised that they would no longer continue punitive practices and tactics of the previous administration, that they would be more and provide more support towards our clients, towards our client population, We were hopeful that, you know, 10 months into this administration that we would see those changes, and we haven't yet seen those changes.

We are still seeing a punitive carceral stance from the Department of Probation. Can I just take a couple more seconds? Yeah, sure. So while I do thank them for their testimony during this hearing, there are a couple things that I am asking for the Department of Probation to do. First of all, is to keep the pathways of communication open with defense counsel.

That is essential. We are here to partner with them, especially for our clients, to help our clients succeed. We're asking for them to expand alternatives to incarceration programs. both for family court as well as the youth part, for creating programs with science-backed methodologies. We are also asking for a change in their culture and for that change in culture to filter down to the practices that are happening in court every day.

Thank you.

Thank you. Good morning. Good morning. Use the mic, please. Oh, yeah, your phone. Thank you. Good morning, Honorable Chair Brooks-Powers and distinguished members of the City Council Criminal Justice Committee. My name is Dalvany Powell, President of United Probation Officers Association. I have with me Vice President Gail Seeley, who's also a court liaison supervisor in the Bronx for Adult Services.

Secretary of the Union James Green is also the CLO for Family Court and Family Court Services, and he also works at evening intake on the weekends. We can arraign him. For decades, New York City probation officers have been underpaid relative to their responsibilities as peace officers. We supervise justice-involved individuals throughout the 5 boroughs by conducting home and community visits, enforcing court orders, responding to violations and crisis, preparing reports to help judges make critical decisions.

This work has specified— has specific goals, helping to reduce recidivism, and help our clients lead more productive lives. Despite the role that we play in reducing incarceration, our compensation has failed to reflect the risks and demands of this essential public safety— of our public safety work. This inequity is a racial and gender justice issue. As for the workforce became— as the workforce became increasingly composed of women and people of color, our members' compensation failed to keep pace with the growing responsibilities.

In 2019, UPOA filed an Equal Employment Opportunity Commission complaint alleging discrimination in compensation. In 2021, UPOA and 5 women of color filed a federal lawsuit challenging disparities in pay and promotional opportunities. Data cited in that litigation shows significant disparities. In New York City, Public Advocate analysis found that men in the Department of Probation earn nearly $5,000 more on average than women.

An analysis commissioned by UPOA found that white men earned approximately $14,500 more on average than women of color within the Department of Probation. Today, inadequate compensation is contributing to the staffing crisis. Experienced probation officers are leaving for better-paying law enforcement positions. In New York City, to the New York City Police Department, Department of Correction, and neighboring probation departments, among other employees where their skills and experience are compensated more competitively.

As a result, employees of the Department of Probation have experienced increased caseloads and longer hours. Officers are less— officers have less time for home visits, individualized case planning, treatment coordination, and other intensive work that effective community supervision requires. According to data we obtained from the department, there are approximately 594 probation professionals, of which 41.4% are under 5 years at the department and 21.7% have 20 years or more.

From 2023 to August 2026, there were approximately 449 separations. I'm still trying to figure out what the real numbers are. And that was including over 300 resignations. Also, from 2020 to the present, it appears there have been Appears the staffing has declined by 33.2%. When probation officers leave, public safety suffers. As New York City increasingly relies on alternatives to incarceration, it cannot afford to lose professionals responsible for effective community supervision.

We urge City Council to amend administrative code to extend appropriate collective bargaining protections to probation officers at its that it previously did for emergency medical personnel. You cannot have safe decarceration without strong probation, and you cannot have strong probation without fairly compensated workers. Thank you for your time and attention to this critical issue. I'm happy to answer questions.

Can I just add something while I'm on the mic? I'm on the mic, right? 1, 2. You talked about doing analysis. I think I have given you some data from before, and I've been doing analysis in comparison to— I appreciate this. That's the staffing and the separation. But before, I gave you something on the dollars and cents, because in order to know how to fix the problem, right?

So I want to give you something more updated, because recently the data I gave you before has changed, because parole, sheriff's office, and Suffolk County has had new contracts. So to make— it's so bad that our— let me just go back. My last contract negotiations, I was able to get us from 0 steps to 11 steps to try to make the job more attractive, right?

We are now— so we got 11 steps now, which we didn't have, and now our top salaries for probation officers is $81,000, where that's after 11 years, whereas a parole officer is walking into the door at $81,000. These are the things that we're dealing with, right? We might have 11 steps, whereas Suffolk County's Nassau County and on the other side counties, they might have 11 or 12 steps, but what they get at the end of those 11 or 12 steps is over $100,000.

So the thing, my concern, our concern is that somebody, the city, is wasting taxpayers' money and throwing it away because probation is doing an excellent job in training them, but then they go on and take those skill sets and they move on to other places. Right. So, right. So you asked the question of what the problem is.

Commissioner Goodwin is doing a wonderful job. We came in together. I've been here for 40 years. I've done family court, adult court. I'm a supervisor by civil service title. I know probation. I live it. I sleep it. I know both sides of the table. We're working together with the department to try to build up the agency. But it's like grains of sand.

Mm-hmm. You could put that grains of sand in your hand and all it's going to do is sift through. If we don't face reality that probation officers need to be paid properly, what are we doing? I'm coming back and I'm going to keep saying the same thing over and over again. I'm sorry, ladies, but this is real.

For y'all to work, we have to have the proper staffing, absolutely, but we have to have the compensation.

And thank you for that. And I offer the same to you as I did to the commissioner in terms of wanting to have conversations ahead of the upcoming budget cycles. so that we can understand what are we advocating for that can make it more attractive to talent to come into these positions to do this job. Because as we are looking to transition from Rikers Island to borough-based jails, the Department of Probation is going to be an important element to this.

Sure. As well as the public defenders and the work that you all do too. We need to have a holistic conversation on what that looks like, what the dollar tag truly is. And how we are able to meet that need.

I want to also acknowledge we've been joined by Councilmember Narcisse. I did have a couple of questions, and then I'll yield to my colleagues for questions as well. First, with the public defenders regarding the bill that I'm introducing today, Intro 1104, in your experience, do your clients seem prepared for intake interviews? I can only imagine how overwhelming that may feel. from a parent's perspective going into a room not knowing what's going on with your kid or even a young person going in and being read, you know, their rights, if you will, in terms of what the next steps and stages may be for them.

So I just wanted to understand through your lens, do you feel that— and I think you kind of spoke to it saying that we should be adding that the lawyers should be present. I thought that was a very— helpful point, but if you had to— if you wanted to elaborate on that. I think what's confusing about the intake interview is for every kid that family court has original jurisdiction over, those kids go through that intake process pre-filing, which means for public defenders, the right to counsel has not yet attached.

So unless for them it's a prior client of ours or, you know, we represent them on a child protective case, we aren't necessarily involved. So we don't know about it necessarily. How does that impact, like, their protection? So for example, when someone's arrested, it's like, you know, you get read your Miranda rights and you know what's being held against you if you say something crazy.

But in that instance, because the lawyer has not been assigned yet, Is that young person now vulnerable to anything that can be held against them in the path that they get to navigate in the Department of Probation? In the way the Family Court Act is written, the information that's obtained during that intake interview cannot be used pre-fact-finding.

Okay. But it can be used post-fact-finding. And so they're incorporated into to the reports. The other population that we're talking about are cases that are removed from the youth part. For those kids, counsel has already attached because it attached in the youth part, and then we continue— I think both of our organizations continue that representation. So we take part in that intake interview, which is why we know so much about what happens, the questions that are asked, what that looks like.

Understood. And what information do you think young people and their families would most benefit from knowing Prior to an intake interview? First, what kind of cases are— that probation will not accept them for adjustment, because then I'm not saying that there's no point in having the interview, but there's no point subjecting yourself to that kind of inquiry that early in the stage of your case if you know that there's no way that you're gonna— your case is ever gonna be adjusted.

That was very helpful. Thank you for that.

Delvany, I wanted to ask you a question regarding workload and retention. Sure. Since January, how does your workload feel different? The environment is better at the office, I mean, at probation, but the members are still suffering because we're still recuperating from the previous administration. I mean, I want to go forward, but it's better, but we still have that residue, and they're still leaving.

They're still leaving. Mm-hmm. I just wanted to tell you this too. In my last contract, we increased the starting salary by 33% to $61,000. So we have the highest starting salary, which is good, but the issue is retaining them. One, before Commissioner Goodman came on, we lost a whole unit in Queens of the gun unit, a whole unit.

And we're about to lose a significant amount of probation officers in a couple of weeks when parole starts to hire. They're ready to go. So it's better, but it keeps going. I don't want to keep repeating it, but it goes back to the salaries. And I was going to just ask, like, if the reasons given by officers for leaving different from before the start of the current mayoral administration, or if it's in the same— It's historical.

This was inherited. So, you know, I did not— when I became the president, I did an analysis of our salaries. And I realized we was never going to meet, get to where we need to be to meet, to be in comparison to our competition, so to speak. And we had to practically, this last contract revamp, give up 2 days of vacation in order to try to get the 11 months, the 11 years, and get the starting salary to where we are now.

So this is historical, but I think It's time to fix it because we can do better services for your clients and other clients in the community at large, and everybody wins. So in all due respect, it's great that we're having this oversight hearing for probation, and I don't know how much input the department— and I would love to be a part of that conversation with you, but I think we should also— this is just a suggestion, all due respect— have OLR, have OMB, have those oversight agencies at the table to explain, and DCAS. what's the issue?

Thank you for that. And there's more to come. But thank you.

Councilmember Brewer? Thank you for all that you're doing. I guess my question is similar. Like, do you have in your work see that there are enough alternatives for young people or anybody actually for the programs that they need? Because it's always been my experience that there aren't enough. And the commissioner kind of hinted that she's reassessing. All of you, yeah, whatever.

Yeah, go ahead. What's the question again? The question is, are there enough programs outside of probation that have the needs met, that meet the needs of the people you're serving? Sort of alternatives or programs that they need that are obvious for their— to be successful. There was a point prior to the prior administration, there was a significant amount of programming.

And now with this commissioner, as she has spoken to you before, they're rebuilding and restoring. And like, I believe that what they're trying to do— and I'm not— because we're in some conversations, but we're not in all conversations as far as the operational. Anything that's directly affected to our membership, absolutely. But I know that I'm seeing them actively involved in building more programs.

I've even suggested programs. I want to get in the crunches. I have to— know how to stay in my lane, but I'm excited about the things that's coming. So whatever we can do as a union to help and build those, get involved in those programs, like I talk about kids with special needs, those kind of programs, yes, I believe that they're definitely doing it.

And in any way we can give input, I'm going to absolutely do it because I will always be an officer first. I mean, if you're— I mean, our offices both have social workers and feel like they spend a lot of time putting together plans and finding programs in the community and seeing what's available. I think our hardship is one, being able to find a plan that really fits a client's individual need, and the programs— a lot of the programs that are really good, they fill up.

And so there is a long waiting list. And since for our kids in family court, at least, you know, our statute of limitations means that our cases are, like, really, really quick in comparison to the youth PARCC cases. So we necessarily can't wait for a 2 or 3 month waitlist. I think overall, with the past administration, when probation officers were no longer— were pulled out of the courtrooms and the liaisons were gone, and that direct immediate connection for even for an adjustment, was lost.

But it's a 2-part problem. It's not just for the Department of Probation and programming. It's also for those cases when we're seeking dispositions that don't require probation's touch, where there's a shortage of programs. I mean, we saw under the prior administration funding cuts to vital programs. One was entirely cut. cut. And so we'd really like to see programs coming back, more funding for the programs so that we can have both the ATDs and the ATIs to reduce that significant detention population for the juvenile cases.

That's all I'm asking about. Thank you. Do you know about our evening intake programs? He works in the evening intake programs. And I hope that Evening intake and weekend arraignment is to keep the kids out of the system and keep it flowing. And he works it. He does that on it. So that's another way the department— that's something that we continue to have to try not to keep them in detention centers.

Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you.

Next we'll have questions from Councilmember Narcisse. Thank you, Chair. I tried my best to be here, but I got here. Thank God. I got here safe. My question, from your knowledge, do probation have someone trained in the intake process to assess our kids' mental and trauma that they going on in their lives when they come in? And do they— if they have a number?

Do you have a number of the amount of young folks that walked in under probation that have— that dealing with mental and, uh, any sort of, um, trauma? I'm not aware. You're not aware? Okay. They don't have no personal— that's it. Because I used to do reentry program as a nurse, right? And one of the things that bothers me the most is just that sometimes it's simple things to get to understand that young man or that young woman that can kind of make you you make that breakthrough, just listening to them and to know exactly what's the problem.

You know, as a probation officer, we make those assessments kind of like on our own. Like when we, we can kind of, and tell me if I'm wrong, we kind of make those assessments and determine what, what we think that individual, what that key is, might be for that individual child or adult that comes through probation. And we have connections with others outside you know, partners that we refer them to.

The individual needs— and thank you for your work. Yeah, because we— Because you're helping us out. Because we are the true scales. We're the scales of justice, and we have to balance that social work, law enforcement component. So we've— we're like professionals in that regard. We're not the actual psychiatrists, but we have the ability to discern what the needs of an individual may be, and then we And then we refer them accordingly.

Okay. The programs that we're talking about is— it is imperative when the child fall into that, you know, that space for us to uplift them, take them out. We need supportive program. And they each unique. And I heard you, one of you probably, you say that. They are very unique. Like I said, they go into something, but the unique things that they have, they're dealing with.

If they can have that corrected, you can have that child thrive. I raised 4 kids. It's just giving the time, each individual one, give them that support and the needs to get— sometimes it's so simple. Yeah. Because I have them that become my best friend. Yeah. Like, while I'm doing the program, because just like I get to know them and to see where they need that support and call this nonprofit that they can get that little extra Do you know we as probation officers have determined that a child just needs a pair of glasses?

Yeah. And once we knew they couldn't see the board, we referred them and took them to the doctor ourselves or made an appointment or had the parents make arrangements to take them to go get their eyes checked or their teeth checked. So yeah, totally. Yeah, like you said, the pair of glasses. It may be their hearing. They have frustration.

Maybe it was just like the family needed a little therapy to get through them through life. So I want to say thank you. I don't want to take long, but I have seen it, and people like you guys make a difference. And how is the administration you feel like that we're doing? Are we getting somewhere? We happy.

I mean, it's better. It's better. It's still a process. It's still a process. And we're still healing. But it's a lot better from where we've come from. We cautiously optimistic. I am too. Yeah. But one of the things I will say all the time and whenever I have a chance, when it comes to every level where you underserved, like things not dealing properly, it's just sometimes if we do spend a little extra in that particular as a preventative, and then you will save people's lives.

Because prevention is better than anything. And those kids, if we deal with the level in in school, junior high school, elementary school, then we would not be having issue when it come to the high school level. Can I piggyback off of that? And that's the more reason I hate to keep beating a dead drum. We have to build long-term relationships with our clients, whether they're adults or children.

But when you break that relationship because somebody went on to another place to go work because they have to feed their own families, that interrupts that, right? So we keep going back to that grain of sand you keep putting in your hand and it keeps going through because we're not being properly compensated. That's— all that you're saying is very real to us, and we take our jobs very seriously.

Officers don't want to leave probation, but they have to. Clients have cried. It's a waste of time. Clients have cried because they didn't want to leave their— because their probation officer got changed over and over and over again. Families have gotten frustrated because the probation officers are not staying. All that's— what you're saying is very relevant, but if you can't sustain the relationship relationship because they're moving on, what are we doing?

What are we doing? I'm in agreement with you. I'm gonna stop right there and share. Thank you.

Thank you so much, and thank you to this panel. You are now dismissed, and the next panel we will call will be Theodore Haywood and Prince Obeng Jr. You may begin. Just come off of mute.

Hello. Hello, counsel. Thank you for allowing me to come up here and talk. I'm currently a junior at NYU, and I came here to basically learn more about the criminal justice system in itself and learn more facts about about it. One alarming trend that really, like, made me question a lot of things was how youth arrests have gone up 50%.

That is a little too alarming for my liking. I feel like we need to invest more in our youth. We need to invest more in our communities. For me, for example, I grew up in the projects, the Morris Housing Projects in the Bronx, and I feel like the government is not doing enough to help the youth in general.

They're not providing resources. They're not providing mentorship. They're not allocating funds in the right way. One way I'm trying to help my community is by joining community-based organizations. One community-based organization I'm a part of is the BLOC, the Bronx Leadership Organizing Center. I feel like mentorship is very important. Right now I have a mentor in the BLOC, and he has helped me throughout my whole— through high school till now.

So I feel like mentorship is what we need to give to our youth. Thank you. It's really hard coming up here speaking because not a lot of youth are around me, but I feel like if you give more mentorship to the youth, there'll be more people like me coming up here to speak and learning more about the criminal justice system.

And we need to provide more resources and more money to these programs so we can help our youth. And it creates a snowball effect if you think about it, because if, for example, if you teach me more about the criminal justice system, I could teach others. and youth around me more about the criminal justice system, which can probably deter them away from crime and things like that.

So just, it's empowering to see how mentorship can play a big role in the youth. And yeah, thank you.

First, I'd like to thank you for your testimony. I could not tell that it was, you know, that you were nervous from not being around other young people. You did an amazing job. I am a graduate of NYU also. And, you know, what you're saying is something that I subscribe to. Mentorship is important, and I'm glad that you are associated with a community-based organization while in college.

I encourage you to join organizations within your school as well. Yes. And look for internship opportunities. I know the New York City Council, for example, we have interns even on the committee staff that you should explore. There are resources here. And what I found just a few months ago, earlier this year, we had a youth town hall in Southeast Queens because unfortunately a 14-year-old was shot and killed.

And we allowed the young people to come as well as their families to speak about where the gaps are. Yes. And we continue to hear about not enough programs. And the reality is, in some communities that is the case, but oftentimes it's also the lack of being able to communicate in a way that the community is receiving, because there are a number of programs that exist.

People may not know about it. Like, did you know that we had a fellowship program with the New York City Council? No, I didn't. So it takes moments like this, unfortunately, for people to learn about it. But we do have to do a better job to communicate this out to the right, to the intended community, which is the young people.

And sometimes you have to be, you know, we have to think out of the box. I always think back to my HBCU for undergrad, Wilberforce University. The year before I went there, they sent buses to inner cities and just told people to get on the bus if you want to go to college. That's amazing. And there were people that never thought about going to college that ended up getting a bachelor's degree from an HBCU as a result.

So sometimes we do have to think out the box. So if there are ideas that you have, specific to how we can do a better job, you should let us know. We welcome that. I welcome that as a council member, but definitely as chair in terms of this space for criminal justice as well, because the goal is to keep as many of our young people out of the system as possible and let them know what all exists in the world for them.

And so I'm going to add to that. Sorry for interrupting, but like you said, giving us a purpose. Many youth need a purpose. That's what drives them to do better. life. And for me, for example, me like coming up here, I feel like my purpose is to advocate for my people and the youth around me because not many are doing it.

So just giving us the opportunity to come up here and speak is very empowering and could change the future for us. Absolutely. And again, I thank you for that. And I'm going to ask the committee staff to make sure we have your contact information so we can connect you to some of the opportunities that we do know of.

And we hope that you stay connected with us. Thank you. Thank you. And you can multiply that. Yeah, your experience, you go back and then not only your school but around your community. Let them know the good news that you have a chair here that's willing to work with you. I'm willing to work with you. I raised 4 in New York City and I know it's not easy.

You make us very proud today. Thank you. So you're gonna go out and multiply that. and bring more to the hearing to understand the process and research. Help them out. Okay? Thank you for your leadership. Thank you. Yes, I echo that. My heart is full just hearing you, so thank you for that. Thank you. Sir? Hold on, we got to turn your mic on.

There you go. Now we can hear you.

My name is Theodore Haywood. I'm a conflict resolution specialist and a program coordinator for Osborne Association. I'm the creator of the BOGAP program, the gun diversion program. One of the reasons why I wanted to come today and testify is because I worked with the NEON program in 2013 when they first started. And unfortunately, the budget cuts the program was discontinued.

The model that they had back at that time was— I do team-building trainings, and so I trained all the probation officers in the city at that time for us to work together. And the idea was that we don't sit around and wait for a person to break a rule, to violate probation. We work together to see that they get through it. in a healthy manner.

And so I've been contacted by probation that they want to restart it again. And I can say that from my experience with the program, I still work with youth up until today. I retired a long time ago. And so when they make this job, I quit. Thank you. I'm going to quit when they make this a job because it's my passion.

A lot of the people that were in NEON programs back then, a few of them actually work for Osborne now. So what we're doing right now is we have 2 programs. One is a BOGAP program, and that's for adults from 19 to 37 with gun charges. No shooters. Guns can't be used in the commission of a crime.

And they come and we work with them for a year. And we take them back to court and get their record clean. And while they're with us, we train them to do the same work that we're doing. And so this model that TOP is thinking about doing, that model works. And it was sad after the budgets was cut because There was a lot of disconnect with youth and the probation officers, a lot of disconnect.

And I think, and the reason why I came to testify, like I said, is because I experienced both. I experience it now, right? And I experienced back then. And it was just real different back then. Most people were connected. And like this young man was talking about, we actually visit, we actually had programs in the projects. It was called— we had Next Steps and then we had Arches.

But once the budgets was cut, that was it. And the last piece I want to say is that what we found out to be is that the young people right now, what they're doing, they're doing their job because that's all they know. They have a poor clothes identity. That's all they know. So when a kid is out there on the block and somebody else is carrying a gun, he's going to carry a gun because that's all he know.

And so our thing is like to change that whole culture. And so that's kind of like what we do. We give them a safe space. We call it the Well. And in the Well, everybody gets along. We had a gun diversion program. Now we're in our 14th cohort. We haven't had no incidences, no gang incidences, no territorial incidences.

Once you provide that safe space, they're allowed to create their own idea about what's good and what's bad. So that's one of the reasons why, like I said, I wanted to come here today and speak about what we're doing and what probation was doing. As a matter of fact, Ms. Goodwin, she took ABP. I'm an ABP facilitator.

I just wanted to say this piece about ABP was created in 1975 in Green Haven Prison, and it was created by the think tank, and I was part of the think tank. So I've been doing ABP 50 years. And so we do ABP with them. We do a basic, we do advanced, and then we train them to be facilitators.

And we did that same process with probation officers. And so we are still doing it, so.

Thank you. You know, thank you for that, Mr. Hayward, in terms of giving us this historical perspective and the work that you have done. I appreciate that. Councilmember, you have anything? I am very appreciative of your time and you still giving to us as a community. And I was taking note a little bit because whatever that we do, if it works, We just going to have— we don't have to reinvent the wheel.

So make it work for our children. So thank you, sir. Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you both. This panel is now dismissed. We will now turn to virtual panelists. For virtual panelists, once your name is called, a member of our staff will unmute you and the sergeant-at-arms will set the timer and give you the go-ahead to begin.

Please wait for the sergeant to announce that you may begin before delivering your testimony. Now I will call the first virtual panelist, Joanne Ojeda. Good afternoon. Time starts now. Joanne Ojeda. All right, we're going to move on. Christopher? I'm sorry, I was unable to mute. I was just allowed to mute. Um, this is my first time in one of these meetings.

I really didn't come prepared with a testimony, so I'm going to yield to someone else. I just wanted to hear what the meeting was about. I'm from 1199, the acting vice president of the area. Well, do you have— no problem, but, um, and welcome to your first hearing. Do you, do you have any like comments on today's hearing or Thoughts in terms of, um, the, the topic that we discussed today?

Um, no, I, I'd like to be invited to more and, and listen to more. A lot of the here— the people that I did speak were really great and inspirational and a lot of good information, and I like to participate next time. So I like to be better prepared, so I'm just absorbing for today. Well, thank you and welcome.

Thank you.

Next, we'll pivot to Christopher Leon Johnson. Hi, Chris. Time starts now. Chris, you're on mute. You got to unmute. Oh, can you hear me now? We can hear you now. Hi. Hey, hey, Sabina. My name is Christopher Leon Johnson. Thanks for having this hearing. When I saw the ticker, I was like, oh, I'm going to testify. This is nice.

For Intro 1104, I support Intro 1104. I'm surprised that Legal Aid, out of all the people, was opposed to this bill. And I know why, because they really want these kids to be in the dark when it comes to knowing their rights, because it makes it easier with the Legal Aid Society to work with the district attorneys to screw these people over.

Thank you. screw the same kids over when it comes to taking plea deals and ACDs for things that can easily be dropped if they took it to trial, or even to where they go to 30-30. I think going forward that the city council need to amend that bill to where the age go up to 24 years old because I was arrested when I was, I think it was 24 years old, way less than 21.

I know how it feels to be 21 and get told to take a plea deal, not a plea deal like ACD, but something that if I knew about 30-30 that time, that case would've got dropped. But they don't want to educate people about this stuff because they know that if people educate about their rights when it comes to being arrested, even to trial, it makes the job harder for legal aid people.

They rely on people being convicted of crimes or taking plea deals because that's how they stay in compliance and astute to the district attorney's offices. My suggestion, Ms. Power, is that you amend the bill to where the age goes from 18 all the way to 24 years old. I know 24 is adult, but you'd be surprised if you ever go to the court system and New York City.

I mean, like, uh, Midtown Community Court and, um, Red Hook Justice Center in Red Hook, not that far from here. Time expired. Yeah, so you'll be surprised that, um, the people that you see in those, in those waiting in the pews be seen, and they're not only— they 24 and under. So that's my advice, to change the age to 24 years old or something like that.

Thank you. Thank you for your testimony. Thank you, Chris. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for behaving. I will. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Alrighty.

We have now heard from everyone who has signed up to testify. If we have inadvertently missed anyone who would like to testify in person, please visit the sergeant's table and complete a witness slip now. If we have inadvertently missed anyone who would like to testify virtually, please use the raise hand function in Zoom. And a member of our staff will call on you in the order of hands raised.

Seeing no one else, I would like to note again that written testimony, which will be reviewed in full by committee staff, may be submitted to the record up to 72 hours after the close of this hearing by emailing it to testimony@council.nyc.gov. Thank you. Thank you. And this hearing is now adjourned.